Battlerager: Experiences?

[Saeviomagy]

I think that in upper heroic or paragon the rager's temp HP may not be all they are cracked up to be, whereas +1 to hit is always nice -- and those PHB-fighters can still get Invigorating powers for a few temp HP from time to time.

You just said that the rager was soaking up 30-70% of incoming damage.

I presume that in order for the +1 to hit making that much of a difference in outgoing damage, you're hitting normal monsters on a 19+.

Better still, said fighter is, while only hitting on a 19+, making up some 50% of the parties damage.

Have the DMs that are having trouble never heard of controllers and artillery?

Have your party members never heard of killing any non-melee while leaving you to occupy every melee foe for the entire combat untended? The battlerager makes that a viable strategy.

 

[Nail]

Have your party members never heard of killing any non-melee while leaving you to occupy every melee foe for the entire combat untended? The battlerager makes that a viable strategy.

Every melee foe?

<chortle>

Now that would be a great trick. Teach me how.

 

[Lancelot]

Have the DMs that are having trouble never heard of controllers and artillery? There's no "meta-gaming" necessary.

I tend to view artillery and controllers as "specials". I enjoy converting classic modules for my group, and combats that focus on ranged fire tend to be in the minority. It irks me that a single build forces me down certain narrative pathways. I don't have this problem with any other class or build.

Here's my challenge: name any other class that, when faced with certain monster compositions (minions, melee skirmishers/soldiers, even some brutes/lurkers) can enter a combat with absolutely no fear, unless severely outnumbered or outpowered.

A wizard is awesome against minions, but is still vulnerable to a mass rush (low hp). A cleric is awesome against undead, but can't take any of them for granted. A striker is awesome at cutting down controllers, but can still be blinded/stunned/incinerated.

By comparison, my play experience is that a 'rager can pretty much shrug off most "balanced" non-ranged encounters in the Heroic tier. And he's no worse than a regular fighter against ranged attackers. Yes, a hill giant will probably take apart a 3rd level 'rager.... but the 'rager is just going to laugh if he's faced with hordes of goblins or orcs. Unless, inexplicably, those same goblins and orcs start pelting him with rocks instead of whaling on him with glaive-guisarmes.

In response to FireLance: Yes, I think it'd be a whole lot better if they could only gain the temp hp once per round. I'd further prefer that the whole shtick was scalable by level or tier. Maybe 2 temp hp per round at Heroic tier, scaling to 4 temp hp at Paragon and 6 temp hp at Epic.

In response to Nittanytbone: I agree that it gets slightly more acceptable at higher levels, but it's still rough even then. As the fighter gains levels, they have more access to other things that compound the problem, like regeneration and damage reduction.

As mentioned above, the straw that broke my back was the 'rager / boundless endurance combo. Watching a tough solo beat the dude down at a rate of 1 hp per round was heartbreaking... especially knowing that if the solo was any more powerful, it'd kill any other PC in the party in 2 rounds.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

yeah. battle rager is pretty broken in that they are nearly invincible to melee damage, AND they are kind of clunky with all that temporary hit points.

 

[nittanytbone]

Maybe DMs should just ignore defenders to the maximum extent the players let them?

In previous editions, the DM often had to intentionally go after the fighter, even though the pointy hat in the back row is more vulnerable, just because you didn't want to screw the players over.

In 4E, the DM should go for the jugular of the squishies every time unless compelled to do otherwise by the mark or player tactics. 4E is the first time that the fighter can actually compel the monsters to pay attention.

So I think the real question is, so what if the battle rager indestructible? How good is it at defending the squishies?

I'd say that it might be worse. It is less punishing than many other fighters; its +1 to hit behind due to weapon talent, and even farther behind on OAs due to the focus on CON instead of WIS. The monsters have a strong disincentive to attack the rager in melee if they can avoid it, because their attacks don't do much damage.

 

[Lancelot]

Actually, more than anything else, I just think the battlerager is anti-fun, in my group at least.

My players enjoy minions and other soft targets. The 'rager makes them far less relevant, so I can't use them often.

My players enjoy a quick turn, and get frustrated when other players take excessive time to calculate hp and damage. The 'rager is adjusting two columns of hp every single round.

My players enjoy a fast, hard fight. The 'rager doesn't hit as often, so takes longer to kill the enemy. And, conversely, the enemy takes forever doing any real damage to the 'rager.

My players enjoy being able to perform their roles. Smart melee enemies will quickly realized that attacking the 'rager before anyone else is a pointless exercise, and will always target other characters - even if they're marked. Hence, the defender isn't really defending much. He just gets the satisfaction of being the last person to go down in any TPK.

My players don't appreciate the DM targeting their weaknesses in every battle. The 'rager isn't going to like encountering artillery in every battle, but the alternative is allowing a class that trades +1 attack for a permanent Damage Resistance 5... at 1st level.

 

[Lancelot]

So I think the real question is, so what if the battle rager indestructible? How good is it at defending the squishies?

Yeah, I agree that it "resolves" the problem - the 'rager is nigh-unkillable at the cost of being a crap defender. But that's not fair on the other players. It's not their fault that the 'rager is broken.

Yep, I said it. Bah-roken. Good flavor, nice concept, could be fixed with some errata (e.g. the frequently suggested "only one temp hp gain per round"), but broken.

 

[Rechan]

Here's my challenge: name any other class that, when faced with certain monster compositions (minions, melee skirmishers/soldiers, even some brutes/lurkers) can enter a combat with absolutely no fear, unless severely outnumbered or outpowered.

The paladin in my group is hard to hit. He has a fat AC and high defenses. And a ton of HP.

They're not melee guys, but I think archery rangers are a real problem. They're hard to pin down, and have a lot of powers that let them get the hell out of dodge when something big and bad stomps up to them. It requires throwing immobilization/grapples at them as the only real countermeasure.

 

[Stalker0]

Has anyone actually played a Battlerager above level 5 or so around here?

Mine was level 7.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

The paladin in my group is hard to hit. He has a fat AC and high defenses. And a ton of HP.

They're not melee guys, but I think archery rangers are a real problem. They're hard to pin down, and have a lot of powers that let them get the hell out of dodge when something big and bad stomps up to them. It requires throwing immobilization/grapples at them as the only real countermeasure.

I know what you mean. I play a elven archery ranger, and sometimes i can go a whole game without even getting hit! I do the most damage and receive the least amount of damage.

I also use every trick in the book to get cover or concealment. If i was to brag about it though, i think my ranger would start feeling the pain, but i tend to be the deadly wallflower type.