Battlerager....Overpowered?

[Nail]

But you don't have to be a low-AC BRV fighter. You can instead be a high-AC BRV fighter, ignore a good bit that BRV gives you, and just collect the temp hit-points. You'll be maybe a feat or two and -1 to hits lower than another warrior, but your staying power will be much larger in most situations.

FWIW: I looked into that (and "did those numbers"). If a BRV fighter takes heavy armor:

• He looses a significant amount of "expected damage per round", and
• his AC might actually be too high, meaning that enemies will chose to ignore the defender, and go after squishier targets.

That's not the end of the discussion, however. If you think those two things are No Big Deal(tm), and that a higher AC is a better fit for your party, go for it. For my BRV fighter - in a large party with no other defenders - I needed him to do more damage, and be a more tempting target.

Besides, getting hit to get THPs is fun! <manic smile>

 

[WalterKovacs]

One point:

A BRV fighter can go with either:

Chainmail and Heavy Shield or Plate Armor. Both are 1 AC behind a Scale + Heavy Shield fighter, but going without a shield allows for a two handed weapon and thus you can up the damage output, while the chain and shield can also get the damage boost or the class. The plate armor is nice since it gives you to option to take Plate Spec at paragon, while your Dex is probably suffering. 2H weapon (or versatile wielded 2handed) vs. 1H weapon will give you basically a +1 bonus to the damage on average, so they are at least a bit comparable.

Ultimately, letting the AC down a bit as the battlerager is probably the way to go, since the goal is to keep the party alive, not just the character. It's ultimately going to come down to party makeup to determine the sweet spot, but the temp hit points makes the enemy want to attack you less. If your AC is the same, they want to attack you less, and you dish out less damage, it adds up to you being ignored more by the monsters. Dropping the defenses a bit, and getting a damage output increase is probably the best way to offset the discouragement of the THP.

 

[smitty22]

....

Just so we're clear: The Wisdom adjustment to attacks is only for OAs. Attacks from Combat Challenge are NOT opportunity attacks.

That's what the "Devoted Challenge" feat* is for - it seems to allow Dwarven BR to be statistically as effective as non-BR fighters at locking-down an opponent.

*(mislabeled "Devoted Defender" in my original post)

Oops, someone else already mentioned this... And I'm glad that Nail did, because I would have missed that distinction had I not been on the fourms. =p

But I still think that a Dwarven BR looks like the most fun fighter-type for my play style. Now I just need to stop running my games and start playing in them... *sigh*

 

[Nail]

Oops, someone else already mentioned this... And I'm glad that Nail did, because I would have missed that distinction had I not been on the fourms. =p

Back in July, I was in this same boat. It's easy to miss that Combat Challenge doesn't give Opportunity Attacks. Not only is the fighter not able to get any synergy from Wis, but also it means that he can only "lock down" one opponent per turn...since you only get one immediate interupt per round.

But I still think that a Dwarven BR looks like the most fun ...

Agreed.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Haven't really read this thread, but I'll comment anyway:

I'll admit that Battlerager goes a long way towards making a Fighter unkillable, but to me it is a clear case of overkill. Fighters(and Defenders in general), are pretty durable already. You can max out every power, class feature, feat, and Paragon Path towards dealing more damage and you're still more than tough enough to function as a Defender. I'm not really sure what the extra durability of Battlerager really accomplishes, especially compared to building a better offense. Losing the +1 to attack rolls the other builds get, and being encouraged to use +2 proficiency weapons means a lot. In addition, the most powerful use of the Fighter class I have seen is using Combat Challenge in combination with multiple attacks to lock down groups of enemies. While Battlerager will aid with surviving such behavior, I haven't seen standard Fighters having much difficulty with this. Your Leader role character will be healing you frequently, and this can get ugly if your friends don't follow up and support you, but its a sight to see when it works. In addition, none of the Invigorating powers hit multiple enemies, and unless I am wrong only one of them marks multiple enemies. It would seem that you have the choice either to gain Temporary HP, or to mark multiple enemies, and not both.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Haven't really read this thread, but I'll comment anyway:

I'll admit that Battlerager goes a long way towards making a Fighter unkillable, but to me it is a clear case of overkill. Fighters(and Defenders in general), are pretty durable already. You can max out every power, class feature, feat, and Paragon Path towards dealing more damage and you're still more than tough enough to function as a Defender. I'm not really sure what the extra durability of Battlerager really accomplishes, especially compared to building a better offense. Losing the +1 to attack rolls the other builds get, and being encouraged to use +2 proficiency weapons means a lot. In addition, the most powerful use of the Fighter class I have seen is using Combat Challenge in combination with multiple attacks to lock down groups of enemies. While Battlerager will aid with surviving such behavior, I haven't seen standard Fighters having much difficulty with this. Your Leader role character will be healing you frequently, and this can get ugly if your friends don't follow up and support you, but its a sight to see when it works. In addition, none of the Invigorating powers hit multiple enemies, and unless I am wrong only one of them marks multiple enemies. It would seem that you have the choice either to gain Temporary HP, or to mark multiple enemies, and not both.

I would think that a battlerager counts mostly on the inherent THP of the battlerager class feature (get hit, get THP), and only takes a couple invigorating powers, if they take any at all really.

Also, one benefit is that, if the battlerager can take pressure off the leader to keep them alive, it can help a rogue or melee ranger who may end up in danger more often to be kept alive by the leader.

 

[Bond James Bond]

• his AC might actually be too high, meaning that enemies will chose to ignore the defender, and go after squishier targets.
  

If if get you right you are saying:

The Batlerager is balanced because his defensive capablilities might be too good, so that he won´t be attacked anyway?

And:

Intelligent enemies might have the choice to ignore the Battlerager.

But why would enemies with below than average intelligence (i.e. most monsters, undeads and the like) "chose to ignore" the battlerager?

What does a Zombie, a Hydra, a bunch of stupid koblods know about heroic classes an their features, that they chose to ignore a certain character?. What can they learn in the couple of rounds they are going to live to make such a choice with an int score of 3 or 4?

Seriously, if you see D&D as a Tactical Miniature Battle, it might work out. Just bring a few artillery with you and focus on the battlerager and let your mellees ignore him, even though he will mark them. No big deal, the Battlerager is balanced.

But in a ROLEplaying game, I as a DM do not want to have Zombies and the like act this way, just because this is the only way I can put up an exciting encounter. My "low int" monsters will attack anybody who is in front of them, and if somebody marks my monsters, they rarely need more than this for a reason to attack him, unless they are very wise or smart ones (i.e. Dragons, Experienced humanoids).

 

[WalterKovacs]

If if get you right you are saying:

The Batlerager is balanced because his defensive capablilities might be too good, so that he won´t be attacked anyway?

A battlerager that goes too far in making himself a tank (i.e plate armor and a heavy sheild) will also be giving up a lot of damage output as a result, since they don't have the attack bonus of the other class feature, they may have given up on strength, they are wielding a 1H weapon and they aren't getting the built in damage pump from the class feature.

Harder to hit + lower damage output = less of a "threat" to the monsters and thus not as intimidating of a defender. There is a point where the monster/DM is going to see attacking the striker/controller as tempting enough to take the penalty from being marked AND take the combat challenge attack.

This depends on the DM though ... if a DM is one that (almost) always respects the mark, and doesn't provoke OAs, than by all means make a fighter have the highest defensive possible, ignore his wisdom, etc, etc, etc.

Intelligent enemies might have the choice to ignore the Battlerager.

But why would enemies with below than average intelligence (i.e. most monsters, undeads and the like) "chose to ignore" the battlerager?

Either they are drawn to his shiney armor, and thus go after him ... or they go after the rogue or wizard with much more exposed flesh.

Considering the monsters have some understanding of what marks are, they have to make a decision based onhow to react to it. The unintelligent creature is just as likely to ignore the mark as it is to respect it.

What does a Zombie, a Hydra, a bunch of stupid koblods know about heroic classes an their features, that they chose to ignore a certain character?. What can they learn in the couple of rounds they are going to live to make such a choice with an int score of 3 or 4?

When you see a guy in plate with a shield, it's not a mental leap to think "he is hard to hit". If the fighter hits and the rogue hits for a lot more ... instincts are the go after the guy that hit you harder, although some will just attack whatever is in front of you.

Seriously, if you see D&D as a Tactical Miniature Battle, it might work out. Just bring a few artillery with you and focus on the battlerager and let your mellees ignore him, even though he will mark them. No big deal, the Battlerager is balanced.

But in a ROLEplaying game, I as a DM do not want to have Zombies and the like act this way, just because this is the only way I can put up an exciting encounter. My "low int" monsters will attack anybody who is in front of them, and if somebody marks my monsters, they rarely need more than this for a reason to attack him, unless they are very wise or smart ones (i.e. Dragons, Experienced humanoids).

So, if you DM a specific way, battleragers can be much more powerful. Of course by having the dumb monsters ALWAYS respect the mark ... you make it so that any powers related to "improving" the mark and related powers, wasted feat. Much like a DM that will rarely provoke OAs unless the players force him into it makes heavy blade opportunity and related feats wasted.

Also, monsters that change their mind as to who they want to attack, based on the threats of another creature ... seems like something that requires intelligence. It can easy to be justify monster behaviour either way in terms of the mark. Either the fighter "gets it's attention" and it's so easily distracted that it ignores the rogue, or it's so mindless that it ignores the mark and keeps going after the rogue that hit him (especially if they fighter's attack missed). A DM can still make a fight challenging and interesting without making the monsters super geniuses. Also, if the groups are constantly against "all brute/soldier" type fights, then of COURSE the battlerager is going to seem broken, if everything is melee and close. If the party went up against nothing but huge masses of minions and swarm monsters, the wizard would be the MVP.

 

[Nail]

If a BRV fighter takes heavy armor:

• He looses a significant amount of "expected damage per round", and
• his AC might actually be too high, meaning that enemies will chose to ignore the defender, and go after squishier targets.

That's not the end of the discussion, however. If you think those two things are No Big Deal(tm), and that a higher AC is a better fit for your party, go for it. For my BRV fighter - in a large party with no other defenders - I needed him to do more damage, and be a more tempting target.

If if get you right you are saying:

The Batlerager is balanced because his defensive capablilities might be too good, so that he won´t be attacked anyway?

And:

Intelligent enemies might have the choice to ignore the Battlerager.

But why would enemies with below than average intelligence (i.e. most monsters, undeads and the like) "chose to ignore" the battlerager?

A good question (despite the attempt to denigrate my role-playing ability). WalterKovacs lays out the answer pretty well. Let me try too:

Let's say yer a dumb hydra. Hunger pangs and simple meaness induce you to attack a party of humanoids that crosses your line-o-sight. Who to eat first?

• There's this shiny, metal-plate-covered humanoid thing, hiding behind another plate of metal, waving a sharp-looking small metal tooth-pick,
• There's a morsel in much less metal, who's just shot two sharp wooden slivers in you with a bow, and
• There's an un-armored meat snack waving his arms around in back.

Which would you pick to eat first? Which would you chose to ignore until they really started hurting you?

Etc.

Next time you wonder about fighter options, just ask: "What Would a Hydra Eat?"

 

[DrSpunj]

I'm throwing my vote behind WalterKovacs and Nail, FWIW.

Generally speaking, if a monster has low Intelligence and low Wisdom they tend to focus on the closest foe and/or pay attention to who's marked them.

With average or better Intelligence or Wisdom I have them try to be a bit more discerning in their choice of targets and respect the mark at least once, but if the Defender's AC is much more than 2 higher than the AC of their allies then the monster might just chance getting hit with a melee basic attack (Fighter/Swordmage) or radiant dmg (Paladin) to attack a target that's possibly easier to hit based on what's already been listed in the last couple posts.

A Defender's goal is not really to avoid getting hit, it's to avoid getting hit too much while saving his squishier allies from those hits. There's a fine line with AC there, IMO.