Battlerager....Overpowered?

[Zelc]

Perhaps here's another way to think about Battlerager Vigor. Toughness is widely regarded as one of the best feats. Battlerager Vigor gives you around three free Toughness feats, and Battlerager Vigor Fighters also get the opportunity to take one or two more Toughness feats (Dwarf Stoneblood and Improved Vigor) than everyone else.

Dwarf Battleragers are 6x Toughness!


(OK fine they don't benefit from a better Healing Surge. Still )

 

[Nail]

For anyone concerned about Battlerager: It's neat (IMO) to compare a WT fighter (with a bastard sword) to a BRV fighter (with a craghammer). Both are optimized choices...

...and you'll find their damage/round is comparable.

************************
If you're interested:

Expected damage per attack = (P-0.05)*1/2*(Dmax+Dmin) + (0.05*Dmax)

where:
P = probability to hit, as a decimal
Dmax= maximum damage per hit
Dmin= minimum damage per hit
******************************

So the difference between these builds isn't damage output (with the WT fighter on top by a slight margin), but staying power. It's clear the lower AC BRV fighter will get hit more often - and be able to take the damage - but what about all of those "(save ends)" effects? He's stuck with those more than the WT fighter will be, I think.

Thoughts?

 

[James McMurray]

Just so we're clear: The Wisdom adjustment to attacks is only for OAs. Attacks from Combat Challenge are NOT opportunity attacks.

If you take the Devoted Challenge feat you add Wisdom to hit and damage for combat challenges.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Just so we're clear: The Wisdom adjustment to attacks is only for OAs. Attacks from Combat Challenge are NOT opportunity attacks.

Martial Power has a feat, specifically for dwarf fighters, that allows them to add wis mod to attack and damage for combat challenge (it's called Devoted Challenge). That was the "devoted defender" feat he was referring to in the post.

 

[Nail]

Martial Power has a feat, specifically for dwarf fighters, that allows them to add wis mod to attack and damage for combat challenge (it's called Devoted Challenge). That was the "devoted defender" feat he was referring to in the post.

Ah!

Thanks.

...why do dwarves get all of the cool feats? Geez.

-Nail (the human fighter)

 

[Obryn]

Ah!

Thanks.

...why do dwarves get all of the cool feats? Geez.

-Nail (the human fighter)

My guess is it's compensation for not having a Strength bonus. After all, Dwarves are the archetypal D&D fighters, but now all these Dragonborn are stepping on their (Which still leaves Humans a bit out in the cold, sadly.)

It's kind of like how Tieflings can take a feat which gives them bonuses to Fire spells, completely offsetting their lack of a Con bonus for Infernal Warlocks.

-O

 

[Nail]

My guess is it's compensation for not having a Strength bonus. After all, Dwarves are the archetypal D&D fighters, but now all these Dragonborn are stepping on their (Which still leaves Humans a bit out in the cold, sadly.)

Although I agree with your analysis of "why" the designers are doing it, it feels bogus to me.

The races should be balanced within their roles *before* feats are applied, not after. And IMO, dwarves and humans already are balanced with respect to the fighter role.

....but given the new feats (like Stoneblood), it's foolish not to pick dwarf for your BRV fighter's race. Too bad I created my fighter before MP came out.

 

[Ibixat]

Although I agree with your analysis of "why" the designers are doing it, it feels bogus to me.

The races should be balanced within their roles *before* feats are applied, not after. And IMO, dwarves and humans already are balanced with respect to the fighter role.

....but given the new feats (like Stoneblood), it's foolish not to pick dwarf for your BRV fighter's race. Too bad I created my fighter before MP came out.

Viva La Foolishness!

My Elven Battlerager who uses a glaive salutes you all!

 

[LittleFuzzy]

For anyone concerned about Battlerager: It's neat (IMO) to compare a WT fighter (with a bastard sword) to a BRV fighter (with a craghammer). Both are optimized choices...

...and you'll find their damage/round is comparable.

************************
If you're interested:

Expected damage per attack = (P-0.05)*1/2*(Dmax+Dmin) + (0.05*Dmax)

where:
P = probability to hit, as a decimal
Dmax= maximum damage per hit
Dmin= minimum damage per hit
******************************

So the difference between these builds isn't damage output (with the WT fighter on top by a slight margin), but staying power. It's clear the lower AC BRV fighter will get hit more often - and be able to take the damage - but what about all of those "(save ends)" effects? He's stuck with those more than the WT fighter will be, I think.

Thoughts?

But you don't have to be a low-AC BRV fighter. You can instead be a high-AC BRV fighter, ignore a good bit that BRV gives you, and just collect the temp hit-points. You'll be maybe a feat or two and -1 to hits lower than another warrior, but your staying power will be much larger in most situations.

 

[Nail]

Viva La Foolishness!

My Elven Battlerager who uses a glaive salutes you all!

<Nail the human BRV fighter tips his helmet to you>