Beast Master Ranger Alterations

[jodyjohnson]

Revised:

Ranger Level - 7th
Starting Dexterity - 16 (point buy plus racial)
Weapon - Longbow (1d8), Archery style
4th level ASI/Feat - +2 Dex

Hunter (Colossus Slayer) - 1 Target (+9 attack for 1d8+4)
2d8+8 + 1d8 (21.5 avg). Add 7 with Hunter's Mark (2d6). 28.5 total

Hunter (Colossus Slayer) - 2 Targets (Kill injured move to new)
2d8+8 + 1d8 (21.5 avg). Add 3.5 with Hunter's Mark. 25 total (moving Mark costs a bonus action)

Hunter (Colossus Slayer) - 2 Targets (Kill injured move to new, Hunter's Mark already on original)
2d8+8 + 1d8 (21.5 avg). Add 7 with Hunter's Mark. 28.5 total (moving Mark between attacks with bonus action)

Hunter (Horde Breaker) - 1 Target
2d8+8 (17 avg). Add 7 with Hunter's Mark (2d6). 24 total

Hunter (Horde Breaker) - 2 Targets (trigger HB)
2d8+8 (17 avg) & 1d8+4 (8.5 avg). Add 7 with Hunter's Mark. 32.5 total.

Hunter (Horde Breaker) - 2 Targets (Kill injured move to new, Hunter's Mark already on original)
2d8+8 (17 avg) & 1d8+4 (8.5 avg). Add 10.5 with Hunter's Mark. 36 total (moving Mark between attacks with bonus action)

Ranger Level - 7th
Starting Dexterity - 16
Weapon - Longbow (1d8), archery style
4th level ASI/Feat - +2 Dex
Pet - Warhorse or Giant Poisonous Snake (no house rule needed)
6th level pet ASI +2 Str

Beast Master (without Unleashed) - 1 Target or 2
2d8+8 (17 avg) Add 7 with Hunter's Mark (2d6). 24 total
-or-
1d8+4 + 2d6+8 (23.5 avg) add another 15 if the Trample triggers. - Warhorse - Hooves add 3.5 from Hunter's Mark 42 total.
-or-
1d8+4 + 1d4+8 (19 avg) plus 13.5 Poison on a failed save - Giant Poisonous Snake - Bite add 3.5 from Hunter's Mark 36 total.

Beast Master (with Unleashed) - 1 Target or 2
2d8+8 + 2d6+8 (32 avg) add another 15 if the Trample triggers - Warhorse - Hooves 47 total.-or-
2d8+8 + 1d4+8 (27.5 avg) plus 13.5 Poison on a failed save. Giant Poisonous Snake - Bite 41 total.

On second round add 7 from Hunter's Mark.

Hunter ranges from 24-36 average when everything hits. +9 to hit.

Beastmaster ranges from 36 to 54 once everything is rolling. And the Snake and Warhorse both have +10 to hit.

The Bear as a multiattacker has low attack bonuses and lower damage to make up for the 2 attacks. Which the Beastmaster can't leverage. Bear +7 to hit.

Creatures matching the Black Bear or better at 7th - Giant Owl, Giant Centipede, Giant Wasp, Crocodile, Giant Poisonous Snake. Wolf, Panther, and Warhorse do knockdowns which will interfere with Archery unless the timing is right. However they synergize with a Greatsword (even without GWS).

 

[Brakkis]

Essentially the vote against it is based on an "If/then" statement. If an ability triggers and/or if a target fails a saving throw, then this creature adds this additional damage which then pushes the average total damage above the other archetype. That's not exactly a solid argument against something. It's not an argument for something either. Indeed it's similar to the same argument defenders of the Beast Master use to justify it not needing to be fixed. They choose 1/4 or 1/8 companions that get a niche ability that can go off and become reliant on it happening to be of any worth. That's not a valid design mechanic, nor a valid argument to not fix the class design. Even the designers have admitted this.

I'll drop the ASI from the design, along with the Huge modifier at 15 since we've already covered the immensely limited pool of companions that would even add in the first place. That brings it down to scaling to desired levels and pet options, along with the unleashed feature, which does have a drawback to it so you need to keep up on your pet's state of being.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Your Beastmaster beats the Hunter without the conditionals. The warhorse does 15, the snake 17 (on a successful save), and the Ranger is doing 12 per shot (with hunter's Mark).

If the conditionals trigger: +12 for Horde Breaker, +4.5 for Colossus Slayer, +15 for the Warhorse, and +7 for the Snake.

And I'm not saying it doesn't deserve a fix. It just doesn't need a huge bump.

 

[Brakkis]

Your Beastmaster beats the Hunter without the conditionals. The warhorse does 15, the snake 17 (on a successful save), and the Ranger is doing 12 per shot (with hunter's Mark).

If the conditionals trigger: +12 for Horde Breaker, +4.5 for Colossus Slayer, +15 for the Warhorse, and +7 for the Snake.

And I'm not saying it doesn't deserve a fix. It just doesn't need a huge bump.

While your numbers are slightly off, I get the gist of it. Though I don't think it's a huge boost, it just serves to show the issue with the Hunter archetype as well. That being that Colossus Slayer and Horde Breaker should scale with higher levels the same way other classes damaging abilities do. Also dropped the size down to Medium until a later level.

 

[Hesher]

Brakkis, I have a question: did you or your group playtest it? One of the main things people point out when you come up with homebrews (and I agree with) is that playtest is a necessity. I mean, things look great on paper, but if WotC allowed the original BM to be published like that (based on several playtests), for example, they have an argument that you do not, to say the least.

And just to clarify, I'm in the "I don't like the BM as it is" club and I really like your changes (especially the CR scaling along with the monstrous creatures). Nice work and keep it up!

 

[Brakkis]

Brakkis, I have a question: did you or your group playtest it? One of the main things people point out when you come up with homebrews (and I agree with) is that playtest is a necessity. I mean, things look great on paper, but if WotC allowed the original BM to be published like that (based on several playtests), for example, they have an argument that you do not, to say the least.

And just to clarify, I'm in the "I don't like the BM as it is" club and I really like your changes (especially the CR scaling along with the monstrous creatures). Nice work and keep it up!

We played it at level 7 with the Black Bear that I posted the average damage numbers of using Unleashed. We ran a few battles with multiple enemies and a couple against single target "boss" enemies. The bear died on the second "boss" because the player chose not to use his full turn to regain control of his companion and call it back.

We chose the black bear because at that CR and level, it would be a very common beast creature that could be found and tamed. Sure, there are niche options for pets that have triggered abilities that make them more viable in terms of damage but our group deemed that you need to RP how you acquire your companion rather than just going "Found a snake, tamed it".

I don't know which classes were tested prior to 5e's release. I have heard/read rumors that some classes weren't tested enough. These rumors may hold some weight but again, I do not claim to know how factual such rumors truly are.

 

[Xeviat]

I'm worried about the scaling CRs ontop of the scaling damage bonus.

I'm very fond of my own beast master version, in my signature, but I'm biased. You do a few of the same things I did, especially the HP/HD issue.

 

[liriana]

Hmm is there any concern with intelligent animal companions as in the Winter Wolf? An intelligent mount is no longer controlled by you, and I believe a Winter Wolf's INT is high enough to qualify. I know Beast Companion isn't the same thing, and I like the idea of the Evil Ranger with a winter Wolf companion, however I also feel it would make the Winter Wolf unleash too good since it is an intelligent creature. Acting on its own, it still makes intelligent decisions..

It's only a small complaint I do like your overall changes, will have to take a look at trying them.

 

[jodyjohnson]

If the creature is intelligent enough then it is a situation where you have a PC and an NPC rather than a PC with a Class Feature (Animal Companion). For encounters, this is the standard.

For XP and balancing encounters for players the Stock BM counts as a single unit whereas there is always the option to have an NPC & PC combo - the same as any other NPCs like Hirelings, Henchmen, or Cohorts.

Beasts, Mounts, Hirelings, Henchmen, and Cohorts are options that don't necessarily fall under Class Features.

 

[liriana]

but doesn't the Paladin spell Find Mount already break that and set a precedent for a smart animal companion, with no increase in xp soaking party members...so it would still be a pc with class feature even if you allow the intelligent companions?

Now I do like hte idea, just worried about what it would do, as the find mount spell allows a paladin to have hte mount act on his own, or is that only specifically because of the wording on the spell?