Beating invisibility

[Mark Chance]

Mark, I was thinking of the listen rule as well. Seems Eric taught you well. +30 something listen score indeed!

Indeed! Live and learn, eh?

Eric is still running roughshod over the Hide rules, but he's doing it with Jason as GM now, so it doesn't bother me. He's actually got Jason convinced that he can engage in full-out melee while use Hide a mere feet from his targets and remain undetectable. Jason is pushing back a little bit, and last game session dissected Eric's character's hide ability via true sight.

So, how's Chicago? When you gonna move back to civilization?

Did you read about my Branson trip?

 

[Mystery Man]

You're new here, aren't you?

I have to agree with Hong. In the Campaign I've just started I have banned the spells Greater Invisibility and Fly because as soon as they are able to, every spellcaster that's been run in one of my campaigns has taken these spells.

I've never known any spellcaster not to. But a quote from one of my players....

"Who needs to fly when you can cast fireballs 500 ft and lighting bolts 200 ft….. "

OH this is going to be a fun summer.

A couple of my players are pretty inexperienced tactic wise, which is why sometimes the get pissed when things don't work out exactly how they intended. They don't plan for the defeat they just see what a spell can do and assume the best, or to put it another way I think they assume the monster is sitting in the middle of the room completely oblivious until they show up. Invis is one of those tricky ones where I'll need some creative ways to describe why just because they're invisible they can still be found and thwacked.

 

[hong]

One doesn't "tons of ranks in Listen" to make a DC 20 Listen check, but that wasn't my point.

When fights at high levels often last 3-4 rounds, one needs tons of ranks for it to make any difference. If you're losing three-quarters of your attacks because you can't pinpoint the other guy each round, they're as good as immune.

My point was that defeating greater invisibility is something that can be done in a variety of different ways, some of which involve no magic or special abilities at all.

... and which, when you consider the ways a clever gamer can exploit greater invis or combine it with other spells for great effect, are often easily negated or ignorable.

Locating an invisible rogue doesn't stop them sneak attacking you to death, whether from up close or 30 feet away.

Locating an invisible sorc is pointless, when they're 100 feet up in the air and you don't have any reasonable ranged weapons (like a lot of monsters).

Locating even an invisible fighter doesn't help much, if you're still denied your Dex bonus to AC.

Etcetera.

 

[Olorin]

<snip>Locating an invisible sorc is pointless, when they're 100 feet up in the air and you don't have any reasonable ranged weapons (like a lot of monsters).

Just had to comment on this one... if you don't have any reasonable ranged weapons, what difference does it make if the flying sorceror is invisible or not?

I guess fly is out too?

 

[hong]

Just had to comment on this one... if you don't have any reasonable ranged weapons, what difference does it make if the flying sorceror is invisible or not?

Oops. Perhaps "even with ranged weapons" would be a better way of putting it. In this case, locating the sorc can help, but you're still having to contend with the miss chance.

I guess fly is out too?

Funny you should mention that.

Actually, I haven't really banned flying as such (I basically bumped it up to a 4th level spell). This is because I can grok a game where lots of combats are aerial. It would look like some of the more extravagant wuxia movies, where everyone who's anyone can fly (at least at dramatically appropriate moments). In fact, I'm encouraging the players IMC to get flight as soon as they can; it makes life easier for everyone concerned if the playing field is level.

Flight basically involves less of an effort for me to place in context, than does greater invis. It also doesn't change the balance of power as much, at least for melee types; if your schtick involves a sword, then you're still going to have to close for combat. You could switch to a bow, but typically that involves a significant reduction in your own combat capabilities; D&D encourages specialisation, and not many characters are equally competent at both melee and ranged combat (those that are, tend to end up being relatively mediocre at both). Being invisible, OTOH, helps just about everybody.

 

[Voadam]

Undead have no special ability to overcome invisibility just because they are undead. Glamers are not mind-affecting spells.

In addition to all of the magical and special sensory means of overcoming invisibility, greater or otherwise, that have been mentioned, there is also rather common Listen check. To quote the SRD:



Note the hyperbole in the second to the last sentence. It's not practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature in certain circumstances. An invisible spellcaster, for example, is going to have to at least talk with a strong tone of voice to cast spells (barring Silent Spells). This is a DC 0 Listen check, not counting modifiers for range (-1 per 10 ft.) or barriers.

Since we're talking about a sorcerer able to cast greater invisibility, let's assume an 8th-level party. Now consider the first CR 8 monster I found in the MM: an efreeti. This creature has Listen +15. It can probably make the Listen check to pinpoint the invisible sorcerer's location easy enough. Sure, it still must contend with the 50% miss chance, but that's okay. Two 12th-level scorching rays (one Quickened, one as a standard action) ought to at least get the sorcerer's attention.

In short, greater invisibility is far from a game killer. There are plenty of counters written into the rules.

Do you ready attacks or spells to target the invisible caster as he casts? Otherwise you might be targeting where he was. He can cast loudly then move after casting. Then your pinpointed attacks are wasted on where he was. This reduces an archer to one readied shot or a melee fighter to a readied charge one shot, and still with the 50% miss chance.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Invisibility, Hiding in Plain Sight, & the Art of Nerfing

Our party faced its greatest challenge when it fought a veteran Cyricist assassin. The guy had improved invisibility AND the ability to hide in plain sight.

Now, our PCs had the magical means to see invisibility easily at hand (thanks to my Deep Imaskari archmage), but this guy still ruthlessly punked us several times ... and he killed two of us.

By the time we downed him, we felt like we had earned our veterans' stripes.

______________________________________​

On another note, I could not help noticing all of the heated discussion regarding the "banning" of core D&D spells.

Honestly, if any DM is thinking about banning nearly 25% of all official magic, they should seriously think about playing another game (perhaps one better suited to their style of play).

 

[Pielorinho]

Honestly, if any DM is thinking about banning nearly 25% of all official magic, they should seriously think about playing another game (perhaps one better suited to their style of play).

Why? I know this guy Bob who loooooves him a burrito, but is a total spice wimp; instead of putting hot salsa on his burrito, he adds pickles. And he adds shredded carrots, and he uses a spinach tortilla.

Hey, whatever. He likes it. I'm not going to be the one to tell him that it's so different from Mexican food that he ought to seriously think about eating Norwegian food instead.

Let folks play the game they want, the way they want. If Hong wants to ban Greater Invisibility, that's his business. If I want to require all PCs to be pixies belonging to the Magic Sparkle Family, that's my business. Be glad folks have found the way to play they like.

Daniel

 

[Ourph]

The party wizard/sorcerer can be a big advantage in helping the rest of his party pinpoint the invisible creature/character.

Most of the straight-forward methods have already been suggested.

This is one that I worked out in our 3.5 game because we were getting pounded by a wizard/sorcerer duo who always came at us invisible.

I keep an "invisibility emergency kit" on me at all times. It consists of a scroll of see invisibility (obviously), a scroll of spectral hand and I always take at least one light spell.

Using my ability to see the invisible opponent, I use the spectral hand to deliver a light spell to the opponent's clothing or his most useful possession. While the item remains invisible, the light given off by the item does not, allowing everyone to see which square the target is in (they still have the 50% miss chance, but it's a heck of alot better than not being able to pinpoint the guy at all).

In the case of the wizard/sorcerer duo, I delivered the light spell (no save by the way) to the wizard's spell component pouch. Now, he has the option of either dropping his components and not being able to cast most of his spells, wasting some time dispelling the light spell (I'm holding action with a lightning bolt, ready to force a MAJOR concentration check) or running around with a big "HERE I AM" sign on his belt.

Not a foolproof method by any means, but it's relatively cheap (two 2nd level scrolls and a 0 level spell or two) and has made the difference in a couple of fights in the past.