beating on walls

FANGO · Apr 7, 2002

Oh, and don't forget the prisoners that tunnel hundreds of yards with plastic spoons from the cafeteria...

...but then again, I guess spoons were designed for digging, right?

hong · Apr 8, 2002

coyote6 said:
So what was up with all those sieges in the middle ages? Buncha idiots couldn't buy a couple of fairly strong guys (instead of one insanely strong guy) a half hour to knock a hole in those walls? What's with these long sieges, or using catapults or battering rams, or trying to scale walls, or having sappers dig all those tunnels? Idiots! Just knock down the walls with hammers.

Chain gangs got the shaft.

Vhane · Apr 8, 2002

Whats the CR of your average 10x10 section of wall?

What if its sneaky? (stealth granite)

hong · Apr 8, 2002

Vhane said:
Whats the CR of your average 10x10 section of wall?

What if its sneaky? (stealth granite)

That's a good question. If the wall makes its Hide check, would it be granted concealment against your hammer? And if the wall hits back, do you lose your Dex bonus against it?

chilibean · Apr 8, 2002

coyote6 said:
Hmm. One guy, working 40 hours a week, with two weeks' vacation, could hammer through a mile of solid stone -- using just his bare hands -- in 16 months. Add a couple of other guys to clear out the debris while he takes rest breaks (remember, he's averaging one swing every 30 seconds, so he's got time to rest), and you're doing pretty good, I'd think. John Henry'd be proud.

So what was up with all those sieges in the middle ages? Buncha idiots couldn't buy a couple of fairly strong guys (instead of one insanely strong guy) a half hour to knock a hole in those walls? What's with these long sieges, or using catapults or battering rams, or trying to scale walls, or having sappers dig all those tunnels? Idiots! Just knock down the walls with hammers.

Debris removal becomes a much more serious problem the further you tunnel. As for hammering through a mile of solid stone in a year, he would probably have died a dozen times due to cave ins before half the year was up unless he built sturdy bracing as he went. Not to mention the crew of 5 he would probably need for debris removal.

Tunneling under a castle wall is more difficult than you might think. When it rains and fills with water you're SOL for quite a while unless you bucket it out. Debris removal is very slow and tedious (probably just as hard as breaking out the stone once you have a distance to move it). And in the real world, you didn't have smokeless non-oxygen consuming light sources like in D&D. Even if you cover the entrance, ground water will be a big problem in many areas. Plus you had to start a long way off or else they would realize what you were doing and work to counter it. That means you have a much longer dig, with much greater a debris removal problem, and a much bigger ventilation & lighting problem.

Plus, there is a such thing as DEFENDERS in most seiges. They can always countertunner, then flood you out, smoke you out, fight you out, etc... and fill it back up.

As for the hammers breaking very often, that is (of course) just a bunch of bunk for the most part. However, medieval masons at a quarry did have blacksmiths on hand to keep sharpening their soft iron chisels. I can't remember off hand, but it was something like 1 blacksmith for every 20-30 masons (I think the proper term is hewer instead of mason for those at a quarry, but that is unimportant here). Also, they used hatchets and axes for rough shaping the stones as well. Obviously while working, axes slowly become hammers as they get duller and duller. But they don't break normally.

coyote6 · Apr 8, 2002

hong said:
That's a good question. If the wall makes its Hide check, would it be granted concealment against your hammer? And if the wall hits back, do you lose your Dex bonus against it?

My question: if you take the Splintering Strike feat (lets one sneak attack constructs) from Quintessential Rogue, can you sneak attack walls?

Ooh, better: what's the hardness and hp of dirt? How much damage does one have to be capable of dishing out to out-burrow a bulette?

kreynolds · Apr 8, 2002

coyote6 said:
My question: if you take the Splintering Strike feat (lets one sneak attack constructs) from Quintessential Rogue, can you sneak attack walls?

Ooh, better: what's the hardness and hp of dirt? How much damage does one have to be capable of dishing out to out-burrow a bulette?

ROTFLMAO Hehe...I think we finally got down to the real validity of this thread.

Blood Jester · Apr 9, 2002

coyote6 said:
...So what was up with all those sieges in the middle ages? Buncha idiots couldn't buy a couple of fairly strong guys (instead of one insanely strong guy) a half hour to knock a hole in those walls? What's with these long sieges, or using catapults or battering rams, or trying to scale walls, or having sappers dig all those tunnels? Idiots! Just knock down the walls with hammers.

Actually...

Men could break down walls with hammers, that's why most castles had things like boiling oil to pour down on anyone strolling up to the wall with a hammer (or ladder, but let us not quibble

). Archers also can impede wall-whacking. And if all else fails, the noise alone should be enough to wake your lazy-ass sally team to charge out and play pokey-pokey with the whackers! (Read that the right way you perv!)

Oh yeah...

One note I forgot to add to my 'hammer handles won't break' point. The handle is simply a means of accelerating the head to a nice speed. You don't apply force to the impact with the handle, the momentum of the head deals the blow, and the last foot or so of swing the handle is just along for the ride. Thus it takes none of the force of impact. This is why:

1) You always want to use the largest (i.e. heaviest) head practicable for the job that you are strong enough to lift/swing.

2) An experienced worker who understands how to swing will ALWAYS outlast the much stronger and higher endurance poor fool who thinks he has to 'hit' the target as hard as he can.