beating on walls
- Thread starter durath
- Start date
To add a little more to this conversation that people seem to have missed...
1) that 23 str barbarian, when raging, can clean and jerk 1,040 lbs. The world record (depending on weight class) is around 500 lbs. Even without raging he could lift 600 lbs above his head, which is still far more than anyone on earth can today, although I think in a situation like lifting weights we can go ahead and factor in rage since olympians are probably trying their hardest ;-) . Also, some of that 23 str probably comes from magic...so we're not talking about a regular person bashing through a wall here, we're talking about the buffest guy around who's also been made even buffer by magic.
2) A wooden-handled sledge would probably be better for the job than a metal-handled one, as Blood Jester pointed out a little while back, because wood does a very good job of taking stress and then bouncing back. Metal, on the other hand, will bend and stay bent. This is why houses are built of wood and concrete is reinforced with steel-different materials can handle different levels of stress and will react differently when that stress is applied. In the case of a wooden-handled hammer, unless someone is trying to break it, it would hold up very well under this particular kind of abuse.
We've had similar problems to this in my group, and the DM (who everyone regards as not a great DM, because of his tendency to make snap rulings with absolutely no basis in anything, and even when we ask him why he made that ruling he can't come up with an answer, usually not even a "because I think that's how it should be" (most commonly it's just "because I say so")) simply doesn't allow the orcish fighter with knowledge of architecture & engineering, multiple magical strength items and magical weapons to bash through normal, 1 foot stone walls because he got tired of us "renovating" his dungeons (which we really only did once or twice). And in this case, with plenty of time and multiple workers, you should definitely be able to pull it off (although it would work a little better with tools that were made for the job, as the warhammer really isn't quite designed to smash through walls, but I still believe that it would work, just not be as effective as a tool that was made specifically for the task at hand).
1) that 23 str barbarian, when raging, can clean and jerk 1,040 lbs. The world record (depending on weight class) is around 500 lbs. Even without raging he could lift 600 lbs above his head, which is still far more than anyone on earth can today, although I think in a situation like lifting weights we can go ahead and factor in rage since olympians are probably trying their hardest ;-) . Also, some of that 23 str probably comes from magic...so we're not talking about a regular person bashing through a wall here, we're talking about the buffest guy around who's also been made even buffer by magic.
2) A wooden-handled sledge would probably be better for the job than a metal-handled one, as Blood Jester pointed out a little while back, because wood does a very good job of taking stress and then bouncing back. Metal, on the other hand, will bend and stay bent. This is why houses are built of wood and concrete is reinforced with steel-different materials can handle different levels of stress and will react differently when that stress is applied. In the case of a wooden-handled hammer, unless someone is trying to break it, it would hold up very well under this particular kind of abuse.
We've had similar problems to this in my group, and the DM (who everyone regards as not a great DM, because of his tendency to make snap rulings with absolutely no basis in anything, and even when we ask him why he made that ruling he can't come up with an answer, usually not even a "because I think that's how it should be" (most commonly it's just "because I say so")) simply doesn't allow the orcish fighter with knowledge of architecture & engineering, multiple magical strength items and magical weapons to bash through normal, 1 foot stone walls because he got tired of us "renovating" his dungeons (which we really only did once or twice). And in this case, with plenty of time and multiple workers, you should definitely be able to pull it off (although it would work a little better with tools that were made for the job, as the warhammer really isn't quite designed to smash through walls, but I still believe that it would work, just not be as effective as a tool that was made specifically for the task at hand).
Shin Okada
Explorer
First, there IS a rule regarding attacking and breaking object in PHB. They are even showing stone wall as an example.
Second, there is no rule regarding weapon breakage because of intensive use in core rule.
So, by the rule, you can break stone wall by attacking it, without risk of breaking your own weapon.
And your DM can always rule-0.
So, this case is very simple. By the rule, you can break the wall. And if you DM says "no", it is a house rule.
Then, Just some of my opinions,
As there is a rule regarding breaking stone wall, your DM should use that rule.
Under current rule, weapon do not break even if an attacker slay big animated object made of stone. If so, why weapon break when he attacks inanimate stone wall? That house rule seems not to be generic and consistent enough.
Second, there is no rule regarding weapon breakage because of intensive use in core rule.
So, by the rule, you can break stone wall by attacking it, without risk of breaking your own weapon.
And your DM can always rule-0.
So, this case is very simple. By the rule, you can break the wall. And if you DM says "no", it is a house rule.
Then, Just some of my opinions,
As there is a rule regarding breaking stone wall, your DM should use that rule.
Under current rule, weapon do not break even if an attacker slay big animated object made of stone. If so, why weapon break when he attacks inanimate stone wall? That house rule seems not to be generic and consistent enough.
kreynolds
First Post
Shin Okada said:
That was pretty much the basis of my whole argument, Shin Okada. Thanks for the input.
I seem to be having a tough time communicating my argument, as it has been full of flamage. (I went back and read some of my posts and, wow, mucho flamage!) Hey, everyone has their days, and I'm surely not the only one here. Veterancy apparently allows a certain amount of free flamage in a given day. Oh well. So, to avoid being banned, I'll make an effort to avoid flaming posts like some of the ones I made on this thread. Hey, I just don't wanna have to bother changing my IP and creating a new account. There was just something about this thread that really got under my skin. My bad. Besides, I'm usually not as bad as I was yesterday, and it was reserved to this thread anyway, so my behavior isn't universal. I wouldn't wanna be flamed like that either. In fact, I received the exact same treatment when I first showed up here. Never the less, my apologies to James.
Now, back to the matter at hand. My opinion on whether or not you can bust through a rock wall without breaking your warhammer is pretty much unchangeable, so I'm gonna move past that. But I do have a question to further this discussion.
Does anybody know what the heck the purpose is of using a crowbar, besides the obvious benefit of leverage? (The relevance of this question will be apparent in a moment) The description of the crowbar doesn't state that you get any kind of bonus, such as circumstance or competence, when prying open a crate, door, chest, etc. Anybody know if there is a bonus? If so, and to expand on FANGO's argument, how about a tool that was specifically made to bust rock and stone? Ya' know, something that gives a circumstance or competence bonus? There is a sledge in the equipment list, but once again, there is no specific advantage you get for using it to bust open chests, which seems odd. Anybody know if bonuses for using equipment like crowbars and sledges are given elsewhere?
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There are rules for breaking down objects in the PHB, pg 135-136.
Now there is the little bit about Ineffective Weapons, but their example is trying to shoot a door with arrows.
In any case, have you tried searching the fortress a little bit? Try to come up with a better alternative?
Things I would try include:
Personally, I would say given a couple of days even low level adventurers can significantly damage a fortress. It will take a fair amount of work, but it could be done.
If anyone in your group has Knowledge: Engineering, have them go over the various plans and select the ones that look most workable. Have them help direct the work. Basically, this is a way to find out what the GM will allow you to do.
Now there is the little bit about Ineffective Weapons, but their example is trying to shoot a door with arrows.
In any case, have you tried searching the fortress a little bit? Try to come up with a better alternative?
Things I would try include:
- Set up a battering ram. Some rope, a heavy object, and some pulling should allow you to swing things into each other. When one block of stone gives way, you put a different one in the makeshift rope sling.
- Create cracks in the wall. Once you have cracks, fill them with water. Now have the Wizard of the group cast Ray of Frost to freeze the water. They used to do a lot of stonework by leaving water in cracks overnight, to freeze.
- Look for stoneworking tools. They needed them to build and maintain the fortress. If you can find them, use those to break down the walls and such.
- Clerics can pray for Make Whole. Use that to repair any weapons or tools damaged by your redecorating.
- Use Reduce on some beams and such. Make sure you're not under them.
- Shatter and other sonic effects will hurt inanimate objects. Have to target shatter directly on the stone to hurt it.
Personally, I would say given a couple of days even low level adventurers can significantly damage a fortress. It will take a fair amount of work, but it could be done.
If anyone in your group has Knowledge: Engineering, have them go over the various plans and select the ones that look most workable. Have them help direct the work. Basically, this is a way to find out what the GM will allow you to do.
coyote6
Adventurer
IMO:
Under the 3e rules, your DM was wrong.
In real life, he was sort-of wrong. People did and do break walls with hammers.
The thing is, I don't think they can bust through a 5 foot thick stone wall, with one guy swinging one hammer, in less than half-an-hour. Even if the one guy does have the strength of two or three men. Worse, the hit points of a wall scale linearly -- so a 10 foot wall takes only twice as long -- that's less than an hour. For one guy -- one guy that's not using Power Attack.
There's a PC in my campaign that could use a warhammer to bash through an 8 foot thick wall in 30 minutes -- and that's using minimum damage, and a mere Medium-size hammer. Give him a good maul and use average damage, and he'll get through a 15 foot wall in 30 minutes.
Better, take a Str 16 guy with a Large hammer (2d6 damage; borrow one from an ogre or something). He does an average of 3 pts past the hardness of the wall every time he hits. THat's 300 hits to knock down a solid five foot thick stone wall (note that I'm talking about a "hewn stone wall" -- that's natural stone, not wimpy masonry). Assume he only swings twice a minute on average -- that's two-and-half hours to effectively tunnel through five feet of stone.
Hmm. One guy, working 40 hours a week, with two weeks' vacation, could hammer through a mile of solid stone -- using just his bare hands -- in 16 months. Add a couple of other guys to clear out the debris while he takes rest breaks (remember, he's averaging one swing every 30 seconds, so he's got time to rest), and you're doing pretty good, I'd think. John Henry'd be proud.
So what was up with all those sieges in the middle ages? Buncha idiots couldn't buy a couple of fairly strong guys (instead of one insanely strong guy) a half hour to knock a hole in those walls? What's with these long sieges, or using catapults or battering rams, or trying to scale walls, or having sappers dig all those tunnels? Idiots! Just knock down the walls with hammers.
Under the 3e rules, your DM was wrong.
In real life, he was sort-of wrong. People did and do break walls with hammers.
The thing is, I don't think they can bust through a 5 foot thick stone wall, with one guy swinging one hammer, in less than half-an-hour. Even if the one guy does have the strength of two or three men. Worse, the hit points of a wall scale linearly -- so a 10 foot wall takes only twice as long -- that's less than an hour. For one guy -- one guy that's not using Power Attack.
There's a PC in my campaign that could use a warhammer to bash through an 8 foot thick wall in 30 minutes -- and that's using minimum damage, and a mere Medium-size hammer. Give him a good maul and use average damage, and he'll get through a 15 foot wall in 30 minutes.
Better, take a Str 16 guy with a Large hammer (2d6 damage; borrow one from an ogre or something). He does an average of 3 pts past the hardness of the wall every time he hits. THat's 300 hits to knock down a solid five foot thick stone wall (note that I'm talking about a "hewn stone wall" -- that's natural stone, not wimpy masonry). Assume he only swings twice a minute on average -- that's two-and-half hours to effectively tunnel through five feet of stone.
Hmm. One guy, working 40 hours a week, with two weeks' vacation, could hammer through a mile of solid stone -- using just his bare hands -- in 16 months. Add a couple of other guys to clear out the debris while he takes rest breaks (remember, he's averaging one swing every 30 seconds, so he's got time to rest), and you're doing pretty good, I'd think. John Henry'd be proud.
So what was up with all those sieges in the middle ages? Buncha idiots couldn't buy a couple of fairly strong guys (instead of one insanely strong guy) a half hour to knock a hole in those walls? What's with these long sieges, or using catapults or battering rams, or trying to scale walls, or having sappers dig all those tunnels? Idiots! Just knock down the walls with hammers.
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