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D&D 5E Behind the design of 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons: Well my impression as least.

You have a source for this, I'm assuming?

There are several. Many are by educators, and focus on the much more frequent transfers of students. Some are in the Corps of Engineers records (tho those only go to the 1970's that I saw, working at the local branch of the National Archives). The IRS has done some. None of which I have convenient links to, as they're stuff I read during my bachelors (early 90's) and masters (2006-2008), or during my time at the archives (1996-1998).

My own employer has done studies that show student mobility has gone up immensely in the last 10 years; some schools have student body turnover rates in excess of 200% of the peak enrollment. As an example, a school with a peak enrollment of 457 students having had 250 stay through the year, but having had 870 transfers during the year.... that's only 3 out and 3 in per week... only half the student body staying put for the full year, and every other seat changing 3-4 times... working at that school, the longest I went without an enrollment change was 9 working days... 9 of the last 11 days of that school year. (the last 5 days, no transfers were permitted; I had one student who got expelled on the second to last day for violence after school the day before. He left in police custody.) Of those, most are in-district - but only about 60%. Overall, the district has a 30-40% student mobility rate - 30-40% in any given year will transfer schools at least once. The turnover rate is higher than that.

UAA's ISER did a study on population mobility in the 90's.

The data available from the US Census Bureau shows a peak mobility rate of around 46% of the population in the 1990's, and in the last 10 years it's dropped to the mid 30's... dropping to levels that (surprising to me) are below any time since 1960. In the 2005-2010 window, they note that 65% of people ages 18-30 have moved at least once. Their data, however, doesn't show how many moves that's been. My district's internal stuff shows that in-district moves are way up, and out of state moves are up, from the 1970's data.

Most of what I've seen has focused on education; that is my graduate major.
 

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Well, there you go then ;) Most people make some pretty wild assumptions on the internet without being able to remotely back it up, but I'd be comfortable in saying you're a subject matter expert, and know what you're talking about in this regard.
 

What additional finality is needed other than the PCs and the DM play out a scene and reaching an end to the scene?
Locking in the outcome.

I repeat, again, my question from upthread: if an NPC tries to bribe a henchman, and the henchman's loyalty check succeeds, how much ingame time has to pass before the NPC can try again and force a re-roll? The combat rules, including their various adjuncts like healing times, answer this question in the case of combat. There is no comparable answer in the case of social interaction.

Likewise from the player side: if the PCs successfully bribe some orcs to be allowed to go deeper into the dungeon, how long does that bribe last for? If a surrender is negotiated, how long must pass ingame before the GM is allowed to declare that the surrendering NPCs take up arms again? (Page 30 of the MM addresses this for subdued dragons, but there is no general discussion of the issue.)

That assumes you're actually doing so in self-defense. The fact that orcs are evil (in the main) doesn't make them an automatic threat. Good doesn't really work that way.
If the orcs aren't a threat, then there is no basis for attacking them at all, is there? But in the heroic framing that is typical of almost all post-DL D&D, the orcs are a threat.
 

Foraging and hunting rules are on page X51 of Cook/Marsh
Thanks! Though they seem to address only food and not water.

even if the game play of exploration is narrow and artificial, it's still about exploration.

<snip>

if you resolve a combat in 10 or 15 minutes, but then spend that amount of time or more on interaction with NPCs and monsters, then I think it's fair to say that combat is probably of lesser importance.
I don't think that's in disupte that the game can be about exploration. (At least, I'm not intending to dispute it.)

At about 4 am this morning, after having been woken by a sick child, my mind drifted back to this conversation. I think what I'm trying to convey is that there is a reason (or perhaps a collection of reasons) for the drift towards combat.

Looking at the Luke Crane play report, the resolution is mostly "say yes" (or "yes, but" in those cases where the player misread,s or has mistakes in, the map). But there is an implicit threat that drives it: the threat of being killed/eaten by monsters, which is a threat that the player can't just "say yes" his/her way out of (there are combat mechanics that dictate definite results).

You said upthread that combat mechanics are simply for reflecting randomness and a lack of real-world actualisation by the players (contrasting, say, to their ability to read a map) but I think that is not quite right. For instance, there are no comparable mechanics to reflect the chance of tripping and falling while running down a corridor (especially in the darkness, which is a good chunk of Luke Crane's episode of play).

In a game in which the crunchy mechanical threat that lurks behind, and drives, the "say yes" or "yes, but" play is combat, I don't think it is a mere accident of taste or teenagers love of gratuitous violence that leads to widespread drift towards a combat-focused game. (Of course not everyone drifted that way. Again, I hope that is not seen as being in disupte.)

If you want to frame the crunch in different terms - eg the consequence lurking at the end of the "say yes" or "yes, but" exploration is not combat but being forced to negotiate a trade deal with no guarantee of good terms - then D&D really leaves you on your own.

the rules are not meant as a simulation of real world phenomena, but rather to facilitate play as a game

<snip>

Combat in D&D is incredibly artificial. Especially in early D&D, when using the Combat Sequence and Morale (which is very much like the reaction roll mechanics). Why does magic always go off before missile fire, which always happens before melee combat? Why does a monster that fails its morale roll runaway?
I think the artificiality is comparable in some respects but not others. The combat sequence is analogous to the turn sequence for exploration, the metronomic character of wandering monster rolls, etc - that is not the artificiality I'm talking about. It is simply a game resolution device.

The artificiality I have in mind is the motivations and context for the actions being resolved. In the case of D&D combat, the biggest instance of this is the one that you have hit on - the fact that combat is so often to the death, which is an artefact of the hit point system but (as you note) produces very unversimilitudinous results in play.

it's up to the DM to fill in the blanks

<snip>

this is both emergent and explosive, despite being light on rules.

<snip>

A party can (and generally will) let a high-CHA character do the talking in order to get a bonus to the reaction roll. But they must still say what they are going to say to the DM, who will add whatever other modifier he thinks necessary (so a player who phones in the interaction, relying purely on his CHA bonus, may find the DM giving the roll a penalty that largely mitigates his bonus), and it's the DM who will make the roll and interpret the results.

<snip>

Essentially, decisions informed by the mechanics is still different from the mechanics being the player's interface with the game.
I even moreso don't disupte any of this! But to me what you describe here is not radically different (I'm not sure it's different at all) from resolution in Burning Wheel, Marvel Herioc RP, Rolemaster, or 4e (excepting the use of combat powers). In all those games, the player describes his/her action, the GM interprets it in mechanical terms, rolls the appropriate dice or tells the player what dice to roll, and then adjudicates (both via modifiers and in terms of narrated outcome) by reference to the fictional positioning. (This applies both to action resolution and content introduction - eg in RM a random encounter is rolled - the GM has to work out why it's there, which can produce all the results you decribe; in BW a circle check is made, and likewise the GM has to work out the logic and motivations of the appropriate NPC, having regard to the success or failure of the player's check.)

You can get more fine-graind descriptions that do distinguish between those various sytems, but at least at the moment I'm not sure that they're relevant to this discussion.
 

Well, there you go then ;) Most people make some pretty wild assumptions on the internet without being able to remotely back it up, but I'd be comfortable in saying you're a subject matter expert, and know what you're talking about in this regard.

Not an expert; just happen to work in a field where it is relevant and much discussed.
 

Locking in the outcome.

I repeat, again, my question from upthread: if an NPC tries to bribe a henchman, and the henchman's loyalty check succeeds, how much ingame time has to pass before the NPC can try again and force a re-roll? The combat rules, including their various adjuncts like healing times, answer this question in the case of combat. There is no comparable answer in the case of social interaction.

Likewise from the player side: if the PCs successfully bribe some orcs to be allowed to go deeper into the dungeon, how long does that bribe last for? If a surrender is negotiated, how long must pass ingame before the GM is allowed to declare that the surrendering NPCs take up arms again? (Page 30 of the MM addresses this for subdued dragons, but there is no general discussion of the issue.)

And there probably shouldn't be specific rules on that, the issue being so contextual to specific campaigns and conditions. Sooner or later you either have to trust your DM to make a good call for the game or stop playing with him.
 

Player portability is far more an issue now than early D&D (pre-79).
While there may well be more player movement, it's no more of an "issue" now than it ever was. Why, you ask?
Players have easier access to authoritative answers than in the 70's. As in, "what is this supposed to mean, Mr. Designer?"
Players have easier access to players in other groups than in the 70's. As in, internet boards.
Players have easier access to information about how various other groups are playing.
Organized play results in more participation in multiple different DM's groups, and in some cases, in the occasional guest DM.
A widespread convention scene also increases participation in multiple DM's games.
Because all of this becomes utterly irrelevant as soon as you sit down at a table and ask how that table's DM runs her game; and that is one thing that has never* changed, the best (and IMO misguided) efforts of the RPGA over several decades notwithstanding.

* - exception: you now also need to ask "which edition", not so relevant 30 years ago.

The more DM's one can reasonably expect to play a single ruleset with, and the more players who are moving and need to find new groups, the more important consistency of rules becomes to prevent widespread dissatisfaction with the game.
Why?

The only thing that matters is whether you - just you, and maybe the others around your one table - are satisfied with the game and-or rules you are playing right then and there whatever it/they might be. The greater community, the greater game, boards like this: all are secondary to that game at that table, right now.

If my rules and edition are different than yours and both are different from what a third DM uses, etc., so what? Are you happy with what you've got going on at your table? If yes, who cares what everyone else is playing - it just doesn't matter.

Lan-"attempting rules unification in an edition designed to be kitbashed is the fast track to madness"-efan
 

And there probably shouldn't be specific rules on that, the issue being so contextual to specific campaigns and conditions. Sooner or later you either have to trust your DM to make a good call for the game or stop playing with him.
When you say "there shouldn't be", I'll read that as "I prefer there not to be". I don't see on what basis you can speak for what should or shouldn't be in all games everywhere.

I don't see how the issue of trust is relevant at all, here. I mean, combat could be resolved on a "trust" basis - we describe how we sneak up and ambush the orcs, and we trust the GM to do the right thing and adjudicate our free description. But for a range of reasons many players prefer more finality, and less GM fiat, than that. There is no general difference in this respect between physical conflict and social conflict.

As to the contexuality of adjudication - here is a paraphrase of the relevant rule ("Let it Ride") from Burning Wheel:

A new test can be called for only if conditions drastically or significantly change. Failing another test, changing a Belief or Instinct, or being wounded does not count (unless you’re wounded so badly that the ability with which you overcame an obstacle is reduced to zero). The following do: discovering new information, being deceived or being betrayed; losing your vehicle, being lost, being found, or the weather taking a sudden, horrific turn for the worse; your finery being covered in filth or losing your precious possessions; learning a new spell, discovering a powerful artefact or earning a new trait; a miracle happening.​

Of course there are other ways of enforcing finality. In AD&D, for instance, there is only one check per level for a given thief to open a lock, and only one check ever to remove a trap, to bend bars or lift a gate, or to force open a wizard-locked door. There is no reason social conflict couldn't be handled in the same way - each NPC gets one try, ever, to bribe a henchman. Picking locks is not inherently more special or in need of finality within the game context than social interaction.
 

Yeah this was one of those "problems" some claimed skill challenges "solved"... but I just never saw this problem in my games and eneded up finding the SC artificial limit much more limiting and less organic than free-forming it...

Oh man! I've found that what I call "social conflicts" that use the skill challenge formula are awesome. So much better than just formless RP or Diplomacy checks.

What I do is call for checks when I, as the DM playing the NPC, am not sure how the NPC would react to what the PC just said. (Which also requires speaking in more-or-less first person, but whatever.)

What I find with social conflicts is that the outcome tends to go in places that none of us would imagine. Which is the point of dice, I think; give us something better than what we could come up with if we just RP'd it out. I've found that, without these techniques, the outcome of social interaction is rather boring.
 

Oh man! I've found that what I call "social conflicts" that use the skill challenge formula are awesome. So much better than just formless RP or Diplomacy checks.

What I do is call for checks when I, as the DM playing the NPC, am not sure how the NPC would react to what the PC just said. (Which also requires speaking in more-or-less first person, but whatever.)

What I find with social conflicts is that the outcome tends to go in places that none of us would imagine. Which is the point of dice, I think; give us something better than what we could come up with if we just RP'd it out. I've found that, without these techniques, the outcome of social interaction is rather boring.

That will be a nice fat Unearthed Arcana article down the road, 5e Skill Challenges.
 

Into the Woods

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