Behold! Yet Another Broken Psionic Power

[Nail]

I'll have to disagree, very strongly. Forcecage is obscenely powerful because any PC without teleportation or disintegration magic (i.e. everybody but a wizard) ...

Or a Monk with abundant step. Or a cleric with any number of travel spells. Or a Rogue with UMD and a scroll of DD. Or any PC with a teleportation or DD magic item. Or lots of monsters with "travel-spell-like" abilities.

Did I mention that every single one of the counters I list above are not useful when trapped by the Cocoon spell? None of them work at all. Even a wizard is hosed.....actually, especially the wizard is hosed, as his Ref save sucks.

 

[Jdvn1]

It's also Shaper only. That's another restriction.

Is it obvious that Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon is way more powerful than Forcecage? No, I don't think so. So I also don't think it's necessarily broken. You could argue it's more powerful, but it could also be argued it's less. Seems more or less balanced if you ask me.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Or a Monk with abundant step. Or a cleric with any number of travel spells. Or a Rogue with UMD and a scroll of DD. Or any PC with a teleportation or DD magic item. Or lots of monsters with "travel-spell-like" abilities.

Did I mention that every single one of the counters I list above are not useful when trapped by the Cocoon spell? None of them work at all. Even a wizard is hosed.....actually, especially the wizard is hosed, as his Ref save sucks.

Clerics have very few travel spells, and I doubt that they would have prepared them. For the Rogue, you are assuming he has a very specific expendable magic item that could quite likely not be the case. I'll give you the Monk (wasn't thinking of that because there are so many better things to be doing than taking Monk all the way up to Abundant Step in my opinion). I haven't met a Wizard who can cast Forcecage and not reliably make a DC 22 Reflex save (and if you ramp up the DC its no longer a 7th-level effect).

However, the main point is the one made by those wiser than myself whom you haven't countered: The cocoons can be trivially broken and the cage requires a disintegrate.

 

[Stalker0]

I have to admit though, taking out that 1500 gp component is allso a really big deal. Forcecage is that spell I only pull out rarely on some big guy. The psionic spell I'd cast all the time.

 

[Nail]

I have to admit though, taking out that 1500 gp component is allso a really big deal. Forcecage is that spell I only pull out rarely on some big guy. The psionic spell I'd cast all the time.

Bingo.

 

[Nail]

I haven't met a Wizard who can cast Forcecage and not reliably make a DC 22 Reflex save.... .

Errr? Then you have some seriously tricked-out Wizard PCs.

A Wiz 13 has a base Ref save of +4. Give him a (magic item boosted) Dex of 18 and a Cloak of Resistance +4, and his save is +12. Against a DC 22, that means he fails 45% of the time. I'd hardly call that reliable. (As an aside: the DC is far more likely to be higher.)

But you're missing the point: this spell is a 20' radius burst. Even in a tactically well-played group, that's 2 or 3 creatures in the spell effect. Compare to Forcecage --> essentially one target creature in a closed cube.

However, the main point is the one made by those wiser than myself whom you haven't countered

.....Then you haven't been reading.

The cocoons can be trivially broken and the cage requires a disintegrate.

Breaking the coccon is trivial? Hardness 8 and 20 hit points sounds like at least 2 attacks from an amped-up Ftr....which means he's used a full-round action to free one companion. And that's assuming the Ftr isn't the one that's helpless....given his Ref save, that's at least as likely as the Wizard. The rogue, with his high Ref save, would avoid the effect -- but be unable to quickly free a stuck companion.

Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon can take out an entire party of fighters.......a Forcecage can't....at least, not without some interesting "packing".

 

[Nail]

It's also Shaper only. That's another restriction.

Mmmm. I doubt it, frankly: Psions get so many feats, it's easy enough to get a power from another specialty.

]Is it obvious that Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon is way more powerful than Forcecage? No, I don't think so. So I also don't think it's necessarily broken. You could argue it's more powerful, but it could also be argued it's less. Seems more or less balanced if you ask me.

Did you note the bit about the Material Component cost of Forcecage?

Did you digest the helpless part of 'Cocoon.

Etc.

Still: Thanks for the opinions, guys!

 

[Rystil Arden]

.....Then you haven't been reading.

You handwaved it away. It is nontrivial to get the friend out of a Forcecage. If you do not have the spell Disintegrate prepared, at level 13, your only recourse is spending two transportation spells to go into the cage, grab the fighter, and go out. Also, there *are* epic monsters that you can trap in a Forcecage, and any psion can easily escape the Cocoon (all powers are purely mental).

Hardness 8 and 20 hit points sounds like at least 2 attacks from an amped-up Ftr....which means he's used a full-round action to free one companion.

Oh please. Then your Level 13 melee-guys are wimps, no offense. He's not going to miss the cocoon, so he nearly breaks the thing with Power Attack alone. A level 13 fighter with 13 Strength who has a 2-handed weapon with base damage of 1 (yes 1, not 1dx) automatically breaks it. If they are all in his reach, the fighter can free the entire party with one Whirlwind Attack, no matter how many members were caught.

As an aside: saving more than half the time is pretty reliable compared to saving never.

 

[Jdvn1]

Mmmm. I doubt it, frankly: Psions get so many feats, it's easy enough to get a power from another specialty.

So you're saying Psions have to burn a feat to get a power and it's not a restriction?

Did you note the bit about the Material Component cost of Forcecage?

Did you digest the helpless part of 'Cocoon.

Etc.

Still: Thanks for the opinions, guys!

Yes, I noted all of that. I also remember using the same power in 3e. It was broken then, when it worked the same way but didn't have a save. I believe they also lowered its hardness since then, but I'm not sure.

It's rather similar to Forcecage, I don't think it's more powerful.

 

[Corlon]

I think they're actually balanced. As everyone is arguing many mitigating factors and benefits of the spells, they come out pretty equal.

All of those that is, except for the Material Component. I'd say add one of those in (even if it's only 500 or 1k or something), and both spells would accomplish the same sort of thing, both with unique bonuses and penalties.