D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Imaro]

There is a slight difference in scale though. If you got told to sit down and shut up during 4e, that was only at most for a couple of years. In return, we’ve been told we weren’t welcome in the tent for over a decade now.

And those of us who like the design of 5e have been told for years its not good... its a fluke, successful in spite of it's design as opposed to because of it... what exactly equates to being in the tent since all editions have their detractors?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

And those of us who like the design of 5e have been told for years its not good... its a fluke, successful in spite of it's design as opposed to because of it... what exactly equates to being in the tent since all editions have their detractors?

I think 5e actually got some things fairly right, but unfortunately it did come up short in a number of other ways which prevent me from easily using it for the sort of play I like. I have actually played it pretty decent amount of 5e! I have all my 4e books and a great compendium so there's nothing to that really. But I find that "4e did X == all solutions to problem Y are badwrongfun" to be incredibly prevalent and incredibly tiresome.

 

[Zardnaar]

It’s not that people are saying, “4th edition rules were not to my taste, for these reasons, and so I avoid that edition.” It’s not that people are saying, “4th edition was unsuccessful for these reasons.”

It’s the attitude that people are gleeful that 4e failed, and that some are trying to argue that no one should play this edition.

It’s the blog post that came out right as 4e was initially released, entitled, “Fourth Edition is out, and it’s awful.”

It’s the video I watched recently, where the person says, “I’ve never played 4e, because I’ve heard horrible things about it.”

It’s Bardic Broadcasts (the “Heroquest is great”guy), when discussing the artwork in various editions, skips 4e, saying, “4the edition is non-canonical, and shall not be discussed here!” Ha! Ha! Ha! He’s so edgy!

It’s the poster on another ttrpg forum, displaying pictures of himself dousing his 4e books in lighter fluid and setting them on fire, once 5e was published (or when it was announced, maybe). I was so astonished that the only thing I could think to say was, “Jack Chick approves.”

There is a visceral hatred of Fourth Edition that I have not observed with other editions.

Which would be fine, except, as I mentioned, it sometimes bleeds over into trying to steer people away from it, without regard to whether someone might like 4e’s style of play.

People have mentioned the disrupts* when 2e and 3e were published, but I view the situation as similar to the division between “Basic” and “Advanced” D&D. The attitude of superiority that was seemingly held by those who played the latter. “Oh, you still play that kid’s game?” It isn’t seen very much these days, except it is sometimes brought up for humor.

Moldvay/Mentzer D&D has, in the past few years, finally been recognized for the great games that they are.

I expect the same will happen for 4e in the future.

*edit: “disrupts”? I have no idea what I was originally typing, here, so I will leave it

I think part if the problem is even now a lot of 4E fans imply that you're wrong for not liking 4E.

People hate 4E for a reason. And that's perfectly fine. If you want to douse a 5E Handbook in lighter fluid knock yourself out.

Doesn't bother me if you don't like any edition of D&D. It's a problem when you choose one edition and narrowly define that 1edition as better than the rest though.

If you're that narrowly focused on what makes good D&D then yes you're going to miss out.

 

[Zardnaar]

You'll have to ask @Zardnaar. My best guess is that, like soy milk, it's what you get when you toss oysters in a blender and strain out the chunky bits. Contrast with oyster juice, which is apparently something that comes out if you just squeeze an oyster.

Both sound equally delicious to me. (And to be clear, that amount is well into the negative numbers.)

Here we gave oyster stouts and milk stouts. Not sure if oyster milk stouts a thing.

Main point is beer snobs look sown on stuff. For me it's what u feel like at the tine. A snobby craft beer can go great with a meal. Hot summer day camping that macro lager is perfectly acceptable.

I also like imperial stouts, dark lagers, and amber ales.

4Es your hipster craft beer, 5E your macro lager.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilkenny_(beer)

This is one of my favorites but I don't expect other people to like it and it would be foolish to claim all other beers suck and you're an idiot if you like them.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Here we gave oyster stouts and milk stouts. Not sure if oyster milk stouts a thing.

Urban Farm Fermentory in Portland, ME had an oyster milk stout. I wouldn't be surprised if other New England craft breweries had them, too, though you're always kind of at the mercy of whatever the brewery wants to tell you about their beer. A quick search says that Marston's Oyster Stout (Burton upon Trent, U.K.) is one, as is Black Pearl from Duck-Rabbit (Farmville, NC, US).

 

[Aldarc]

I think part if the problem is even now a lot of 4E fans imply that you're wrong for not liking 4E.

People hate 4E for a reason. And that's perfectly fine.

I don't think that all hate is justified, rational, or rooted in facts. There are a lot of people who hated on 4e but who evidence a tremendous lack of knowledge about its rules. I have dealt with a fair number of them in my own friends' circles. In my personal experience, there was a lot of hate based on misunderstandings, internet talking points, and second-hand knowledge. And when people engage in a lot of toxic behavior towards 4e and its fans, then that hate, no matter their reasons, is NOT perfectly fine. That toxic anti-4e behavior nearly pushed me out of the hobby entirely.

If you're that narrowly focused on what makes good D&D then yes you're going to miss out.

This applies equally to critics of 4e.

 

[Zardnaar]

Urban Farm Fermentory in Portland, ME had an oyster milk stout. I wouldn't be surprised if other New England craft breweries had them, too, though you're always kind of at the mercy of whatever the brewery wants to tell you about their beer. A quick search says that Marston's Oyster Stout (Burton upon Trent, U.K.) is one, as is Black Pearl from Duck-Rabbit (Farmville, NC, US).

Figured they probably existed. Oyster stouts are a bleah from me though.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't think that all hate is justified, rational, or rooted in facts. There are a lot of people who hated on 4e but who evidence a tremendous lack of knowledge about its rules. I have dealt with a fair number of them in my own friends' circles. In my personal experience, there was a lot of hate based on misunderstandings, internet talking points, and second-hand knowledge. And when people engage in a lot of toxic behavior towards 4e and its fans, then that hate, no matter their reasons, is NOT perfectly fine. That toxic anti-4e behavior nearly pushed me out of the hobby entirely.


This applies equally to critics of 4e.

Very few critics of 4E seem to have 1 ultimate edition. Fantasy seemed to prefer 3.4/Pathfinder over 4E but they were veterans of previous editions or moved onto 5E.

There's a 3.5 hold out working at the game store we play at.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think what is personally frustrating for many of us is that (right or wrong) the market performance of a game released 15 years ago where numerous poor business decisions were made is used as a referendum on design concepts that matter to us without regard to execution and presentation. It's a call to suck it up because we are not worthy of having a game that suits our preferences. Sit down. Shut up. Be happy with what you are given. There is no room in this big tent for you unless you give up on the things you want.

Some times I think it was good that I disliked so many core D&D concepts that I walked out of the tent myself decades ago, and did it again when I realized that some of 3e's features were, effectively, illusory.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

Figured they probably existed. Oyster stouts are a bleah from me though.

Not my favorite either, but my favorite beer of all time is Aecht-Schlenkerla's Märzen, which is a cross between a rauchbier and a märzen, so I'm not sure that I'm representative of anything.