payn
Glory to Marik
Thats some damming with faint praise for 5E and a lot of excusing away a of 4E's missed opportunities.
D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
- Thread starter Alzrius
- Start date
Hussar
Legend
Huh?
5e was developed with a team of what six guys? WotC was an absolute shell by the time Next was being rolled out.
What did WotC do to make DnD grow the way it did? I’m not excusing or praising anything. No one could have predicted the last ten years. No one.
So turn it around. How would you double the rpg market? Something that no one had ever managed to do.
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Campbell
Relaxed Intensity
I think what is personally frustrating for many of us is that (right or wrong) the market performance of a game released 15 years ago where numerous poor business decisions were made is used as a referendum on design concepts that matter to us without regard to execution and presentation. It's a call to suck it up because we are not worthy of having a game that suits our preferences. Sit down. Shut up. Be happy with what you are given. There is no room in this big tent for you unless you give up on the things you want.
Things like tight system math with robust encounter and monster/NPC building, mechanically compelling martial classes, meaningful and binding non-combat features and rules for stuff that is not magic, high level martial classes that feel suitably high level, class design built with synergy and coordination in mind, setting design built with conflict in mind and other features we consider important are treated as if they are already settled matters that are not dependent on execution, presentation and a fluid market that is fundamentally not the market of 2008.
Things like tight system math with robust encounter and monster/NPC building, mechanically compelling martial classes, meaningful and binding non-combat features and rules for stuff that is not magic, high level martial classes that feel suitably high level, class design built with synergy and coordination in mind, setting design built with conflict in mind and other features we consider important are treated as if they are already settled matters that are not dependent on execution, presentation and a fluid market that is fundamentally not the market of 2008.
Zardnaar
Legend
Its more some things are diametrically aligned. Someone's gonna miss out.
Zardnaar
Legend
Editon war in a nutshell.
"I want a nice hopped NZ lager"
" Here's an oyster milk stout"
"I wanted that lager"
"Lager sucks this stout is better"
"But I wanted lager"
"This stout is better here's why"
"Lager"
"Stout"
"Lager"
"Stout"
Etc etc etc. I have two German lagers in the fridge and some Carlsberg pilsner. Gonna go Crack one of those pilsners.
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Here's another one with you posting in it: https://www.enworld.org/threads/grognards-first-take-on-4e.227010/
Here's a couple where we interacted:
Metagame role of PoL compared to alignment
An idea about the metagame role of PoL, and its relationship to alignment: Before there were special alignment-based Outer Planes, and a million-and-one alignment-dependent magical effects, alignment played (as far as I can see) two important roles: 1. It integrated otherwise very diverse...
www.enworld.org
https://www.enworld.org/threads/design-development-quests.212433/ [this one is about a Design & Development post from WotC]
I really think you should be stocking that fridge with oyster milk stout.
Red Castle
Adventurer
To be fair, I’m pretty sure that it is how 3.5 players felt 15 years ago. The only difference is that 15 years ago they had an alternative if they wanted to continue buying books.
With a franchise as big as DnD, it’s impossible to please everyone, someone will always feel left out. What make someone happy will invariably make someone else angry.
When that happens, it’s alright to express his disagreement, as long as it is in a respectful way… wishful thinking, I know…
cavalier973
Hero
It’s not that people are saying, “4th edition rules were not to my taste, for these reasons, and so I avoid that edition.” It’s not that people are saying, “4th edition was unsuccessful for these reasons.”
It’s the attitude that people are gleeful that 4e failed, and that some are trying to argue that no one should play this edition.
It’s the blog post that came out right as 4e was initially released, entitled, “Fourth Edition is out, and it’s awful.”
It’s the video I watched recently, where the person says, “I’ve never played 4e, because I’ve heard horrible things about it.”
It’s Bardic Broadcasts (the “Heroquest is great”guy), when discussing the artwork in various editions, skips 4e, saying, “4the edition is non-canonical, and shall not be discussed here!” Ha! Ha! Ha! He’s so edgy!
It’s the poster on another ttrpg forum, displaying pictures of himself dousing his 4e books in lighter fluid and setting them on fire, once 5e was published (or when it was announced, maybe). I was so astonished that the only thing I could think to say was, “Jack Chick approves.”
There is a visceral hatred of Fourth Edition that I have not observed with other editions.
Which would be fine, except, as I mentioned, it sometimes bleeds over into trying to steer people away from it, without regard to whether someone might like 4e’s style of play.
People have mentioned the disrupts* when 2e and 3e were published, but I view the situation as similar to the division between “Basic” and “Advanced” D&D. The attitude of superiority that was seemingly held by those who played the latter. “Oh, you still play that kid’s game?” It isn’t seen very much these days, except it is sometimes brought up for humor.
Moldvay/Mentzer D&D has, in the past few years, finally been recognized for the great games that they are.
I expect the same will happen for 4e in the future.
*edit: “disrupts”? I have no idea what I was originally typing, here, so I will leave it
It’s the attitude that people are gleeful that 4e failed, and that some are trying to argue that no one should play this edition.
It’s the blog post that came out right as 4e was initially released, entitled, “Fourth Edition is out, and it’s awful.”
It’s the video I watched recently, where the person says, “I’ve never played 4e, because I’ve heard horrible things about it.”
It’s Bardic Broadcasts (the “Heroquest is great”guy), when discussing the artwork in various editions, skips 4e, saying, “4the edition is non-canonical, and shall not be discussed here!” Ha! Ha! Ha! He’s so edgy!
It’s the poster on another ttrpg forum, displaying pictures of himself dousing his 4e books in lighter fluid and setting them on fire, once 5e was published (or when it was announced, maybe). I was so astonished that the only thing I could think to say was, “Jack Chick approves.”
There is a visceral hatred of Fourth Edition that I have not observed with other editions.
Which would be fine, except, as I mentioned, it sometimes bleeds over into trying to steer people away from it, without regard to whether someone might like 4e’s style of play.
People have mentioned the disrupts* when 2e and 3e were published, but I view the situation as similar to the division between “Basic” and “Advanced” D&D. The attitude of superiority that was seemingly held by those who played the latter. “Oh, you still play that kid’s game?” It isn’t seen very much these days, except it is sometimes brought up for humor.
Moldvay/Mentzer D&D has, in the past few years, finally been recognized for the great games that they are.
I expect the same will happen for 4e in the future.
*edit: “disrupts”? I have no idea what I was originally typing, here, so I will leave it
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