Best (but simple) Superhero Game out?

[Umbran]

Aspects are always true even if they are not invoked. Aspects don't need to be invoked to give value, they just have to be accepted by the group, to have whatever meaning you attach to them.

My understanding of the rules doesn't match that. If it isn't invoked, it doesn't have mechanical impact.

For example if you have the aspect Invisible, then you are invisible, you shouldn't even need to make a stealth roll unless you give some other clue that you are there. Then if you are forced to make a stealth roll because (say you accidentally knocked over some pans, or a walking on a squeaky floor) then you can invoke Invisible for +2 on the roll.

Ah. To me, that's backwards. You always make the stealth roll. If you have the aspect "Invisible", and fail the roll (whether you invoke it or not), then you find a reasonable interpretation of that - you walking on a squeaky board, knocking over some pans, or maybe your invisibility isn't as complete as you thought, and the bad guy sees a shimmer in the air, or the like.

My point, however, was this - aspects are not supposed to be that powerful. Single aspects are available for giving a boost, but they aren't supposed to create auto-success. If you want to be consistently mighty, get many levels of Physique (or Might, or whatever the FATE variant in question uses). Being a Son of Krypton would be an easy thing to invoke on Physique checks, but it shouldn't mean your Physique score doesn't matter.

If your GM is allowing you to pack a whole stack of things (super-strength, flight, invulnerability, and all that) into *one* Aspect, I think you're well outside what Aspects are intended to convey. I could imagine creating a "Power Aspect", that does what you're considering, including a package of skills and stunts, but I'd want to frame that in some sort of balanced system.

 

[FickleGM]

My understanding of the rules doesn't match that. If it isn't invoked, it doesn't have mechanical impact.



Ah. To me, that's backwards. You always make the stealth roll. If you have the aspect "Invisible", and fail the roll (whether you invoke it or not), then you find a reasonable interpretation of that - you walking on a squeaky board, knocking over some pans, or maybe your invisibility isn't as complete as you thought, and the bad guy sees a shimmer in the air, or the like.

My point, however, was this - aspects are not supposed to be that powerful. Single aspects are available for giving a boost, but they aren't supposed to create auto-success. If you want to be consistently mighty, get many levels of Physique (or Might, or whatever the FATE variant in question uses). Being a Son of Krypton would be an easy thing to invoke on Physique checks, but it shouldn't mean your Physique score doesn't matter.

If your GM is allowing you to pack a whole stack of things (super-strength, flight, invulnerability, and all that) into *one* Aspect, I think you're well outside what Aspects are intended to convey. I could imagine creating a "Power Aspect", that does what you're considering, including a package of skills and stunts, but I'd want to frame that in some sort of balanced system.

As per Fate Core (and by extension Fate Accelerated), Bagpuss is correct. Aspects are, by definition, true. I never actually played prior versions of Fate, but I was under the same impression as you, Umbran, when I first got FAE. When I came across that revelation in the rules, I was very pleased.

It makes things very scalable, simply by broadening or narrowing an Aspect, but could require the GM and players to understand the setting, so that Aspects match expectations. I do wish I would have run a scenario that was better for demoing the game at the gameday, but I really liked the scenario I ran (that the system took a backseat was definitely a feature).

EDIT: Also, the example that Bagpuss gave is very much in line with the intention for Aspects, but when putting together such a game, it is assumed that the GM and players are creating a game meant to handle such broad Aspects and that you'll find a party of Amazon goddesses, Lantern Corp veterans, Martians, Aqu...nevermind..., and so on.

 

[Umbran]

As per Fate Core (and by extension Fate Accelerated), Bagpuss is correct. Aspects are, by definition, true.

Well "true" and "has an impact on events/results" are not equivalent. It is true that the warehouse has "teetering stacks of crates". Until someone invokes the aspect, it doesn't change what you can and cannot do.

Yes, this position does make certain things a little difficult to work - it means a GM can't really say an area has an aspect of "Pitch black", and have it constantly give everyone a -6 on sight-based checks. I'd say that is outside the realm of Apsects. Aspects are elements both the GM and players may manipulate, things that may or may not be an issue, not things that are *constantly* an issue.

It makes things very scalable, simply by broadening or narrowing an Aspect, but could require the GM and players to understand the setting, so that Aspects match expectations.

Well, yes, but with proper GM and player understanding and agreement, you don't even need rules to begin with. We have rules to give us common ground, and make that agreement easier to reach. Thus my comment of building a framework for construction of such things.

Short of that, I'm looking back at the rules, and I'm pretty sure a single aspect isn't supposed to flat grant effective auto-successes, and/or the effect of many ranks of skills or stunts.

 

[Bagpuss]

My understanding of the rules doesn't match that. If it isn't invoked, it doesn't have mechanical impact.

Then I'm your understanding is flawed. From page 76....

Finally, aspects have a passive use that you can draw on in almost every instance of play. Players, you can use them as a guide to roleplaying your character. This may seem self-evident, but we figured we'd call it out anyway—the aspects on your character sheet are true of your character at all times, not just when they're invoked or compelled.

My point, however, was this - aspects are not supposed to be that powerful. Single aspects are available for giving a boost, but they aren't supposed to create auto-success.

Actually they can if you have the aspect "Handcuffed to a lamp post" you won't be able to move until you find some way to overcome that. Aspects can be as powerful as you want for your campaign. In a supers game an aspect that allows unlimited flight might be fine, in another game that might be covered by a stunt needing a fate point to activate, in another game it might not be allowed at all.

 

[Umbran]

the aspects on your character sheet are true of your character at all times, not just when they're invoked or compelled. [/I]

I repeat - "true" and "has mechanical impact" are not equivalent.

Actually they can if you have the aspect "Handcuffed to a lamp post" you won't be able to move until you find some way to overcome that.

Ah. I'd not use a single Aspect for that. I'd say the character was grappling with an opponent (your opponents don't have to be living) with significant Physique, with perhaps the aspect "basic steel handcuffs" or "plastic ziptie" - the PC can overcome the physique, or work to remove the Aspect with lockpicking or having a knife up their sleeve, or something. The point is that it isn't the aspect that keeps them from moving, but the grapple.

 

[Bagpuss]

Can I suggest some reading...

http://ryanmdanks.com/?p=165

http://ryanmdanks.com/?p=261

 

[Bagpuss]

I repeat - "true" and "has mechanical impact" are not equivalent.

It's about mechanical impact it is about narrative truth, Superman can fly as long as everyone at the table agrees to that in game and character creation then a single aspect can cover that, and many of his other powers as well.

 

[FickleGM]

The mechanical impact is limited to an invokes (some flavor of +2 in your favor OR a reroll) AND compels (influence a decision OR initiate an event) based the applicability of the Aspect to the goal of the invoke or compel.

All other assumptions of the Aspect are narrative, so long as the group agrees that said assumptions apply to said Aspect in that game.

It isn't for everyone, but it can emulate the superhero genre very nicely for the right group.

Does "Last Son of Krypton" mean only that you are Kal'El or does it also assume every ability (positive & negative) that Superman poses? That is up to the table and will likely be dependent on the "power level" that the group wants for the game.

 

[Spatula]

This is one of those differences between narrative games like FATE (or MHR) and more traditional RPGs. "Flies at Supersonic Speed" (or any other trait) isn't necessarily a mechanical thing like it would be in, say, D&D. It's a narrative truth that defines what is or is not possible for the character. It can also have a mechanical impact, but that's only important in situations where the outcome is in doubt.

 

[am181d]

I have done pretty much the same in the past.
1. I still used karma but expanded to be much like your hero points idea. Which wasn't much expanding if I remember correctly. Didn't the regular karma rules already handle most of that stuff?
2. Did you make up rules for this and how did you handle advancement/improvement? Or is it something you do on the fly and approximate balance?
3. To be honest I rarely used the modeling options in the rules. I mostly took a character concept and helped the players (if they needed it) develop the heroes as they saw fit. It was more free form and story driven that way. I am not sure if I want to do that this time, though it might work pretty well.
Bruce

Yeah, the Karma to Hero Point conversion was pretty straight forward and leveraged a lot of the existing rules. (Instead of spending X Karma to increase the color of the result, you just spend 1 hero point, etc.)

For advancement, it was literally 1-for-1, but I only allowed the standard ranks. (So if you banked 10 points, you could raise your Strength from Good (10) to Excellent (20).) I found that over the life of that game, it wasn't that disruptive, but you might want some guidelines on how far certain abilities can be increased. (Human limits as well as caps on offensive and defensive powers.)

And when I say "modeling rules" I think I mean the same thing you do. I sit down with the players and say "What do you want your character to do?" and we choose and detail out appropriate powers and effects. We then use benchmarks in the existing game to determine appropriate ranks.


, but I have a good relationship with my players and I run superhero games so that characters are always matched up against villains of equal power (so the Superman character has a Bizarro to fight while Batman is scrapping with ninjas).