Best magic system to represent numerous and diverse cultural occult traditions?

[kenjib]

Heard Runequest was good, with Runic/Divine Magic, Sorcerous and Spiritual, all with different primary stats, spell lists and methods of casting. You might want to look into that.

Thanks for the suggestion. I've looked around a bit for info and it seems that everyone tends to cast some spells in the Runequest system. Do you think it could be adapted to a more low magic setting where spell casters are rare?

 

[Mark]

I think these two ideas would go really well together. You create spell lists, and add differences to how they cast spells and flavor text. The problems I have about this are:

1. I might have to create new spells to cover some of the ideas.

2. It would be hard to know if there is any kind of balance between the different classes. One class might get fireball, dispel magic, and haste, while another gets gust of wind and secret page.

3. Creating a dozen or more spell lists could be a lot of work, but I suppose that I could just do it on the fly when I need to.

None of these are probably a big deal though. What do you think?

1. Maybe, or you might think about just creating a general ritual or focus and requiring more of it with higher level spells. Something like what Noldor wrote but lengthening the ritual or increasing the amount of paint (tattoo up through full body). Think in terms of themes based on things you already have in the cultures, I.E. The Bear Clan: verbal components = bear roaring, material components = bearskin. claws, teeth, somatic components = bear dance. Things along those lines. A sea cult might require all spells include swallowing a small fish. Or maybe they have to undergo jellyfish stings. If you think they are getting slighted on the types of spells they get then you could offset this by giving them a higher resistance to poisons because of their rituals.

2. Think of it as Domains for Divine casters and Schools for Specialist Arcanists. Those assumably have some built-in balance already playtested in the system.

3. Find a list or spread sheet already done by someone else and see if you can sort by domain or school. This should trim the work down a bit. Wish I could help you locate one, but I am sure there must be one out there somewhere.

 

[kenjib]

Pinnacle's Weird Wars has some different magic systems for different cultures and classes.

Chaplains just pray (they don't even need to holy symbol) to invoke miracles (spells). The chaplain makes a Prayer Check to cast the spell successfully.

Adepts cast spells through Rune Magic, which is Germanic in origin. To cast a spell, the adept must know and use the runes needed.

Both of these "systems" are detailed in the main book, Blood on the Rhine.

Unfortunately, I don't think they've developed any other magical cultures yet. Perhaps a "Japanese" Shinto-based magic system would derive power from dead ancestors--as you increase in levels, you make contact with more powerful ancestor spirits.

Yeah, I was also thinking of adapting material that's out there. Swashbuckling Arcana from AEG also has some neat magic classes. The only problem is I wouldn't be able to find all the things I need to match what I've got, so I would have to fill in some holes.

I like the idea of ancestor magic. I have an "Anuri Ancestor Worshipper" tradition that I haven't really fleshed out yet. I think it would be a great roleplaying concept because you could get into old family history and perhaps even political feuds between different ancestors. There's lots of plot hook potential there built right into the class. Really cool stuff!

 

[kenjib]

1. Maybe, or you might think about just creating a general ritual or focus and requiring more of it with higher level spells. Something like what Noldor wrote but lengthening the ritual or increasing the amount of paint (tattoo up through full body). Think in terms of themes based on things you already have in the cultures, I.E. The Bear Clan: verbal components = bear roaring, material components = bearskin. claws, teeth, somatic components = bear dance. Things along those lines. A sea cult might require all spells include swallowing a small fish. Or maybe they have to undergo jellyfish stings. If you think they are getting slighted on the types of spells they get then you could offset this by giving them a higher resistance to poisons because of their rituals.

2. Think of it as Domains for Divine casters and Schools for Specialist Arcanists. Those assumably have some built-in balance already playtested in the system.

3. Find a list or spread sheet already done by someone else and see if you can sort by domain or school. This should trim the work down a bit. Wish I could help you locate one, but I am sure there must be one out there somewhere.

You know, I just remembered that I actually started something along these lines a while back and I've got a bunch already done. The problem I had was worrying about whether they were playable or not, so I wanted to start looking around and see if there was a system out there that could incorporate these ideas without creating new rules.

One thing I was looking at was taking one of the more open-ended systems like Sovereign Stone, Chaos Magic, or Elements of Magic and tweaking it to narrow the focus of what a particular mage could do based on his tradition. I guess Mage the Ascension would be along these lines too -- as would Riddle of Steel, which looks interesting too. I particularly like Sovereign Stone, because while it is open ended, it still has the concept of spells, research, and hermetic lore, which some of the other systems forego in favor of a more innate magical power.

Has anyone tried to modify one of these systems to change the focus to fit their world? It seems like you could just change some of the various "spheres" or "vocabulary" to create a limitation on the kinds of spells to be cast. For example, a Namarundese Serpent Eater would be able to create any spell using the open-ended rules so long as it is somehow grounded in the traits of various snakes, player suggestions being arbitrated by the DM. This would have the advantage of an infinite "spell list" with a balanced mechanic to insure that different traditions are all roughly on the same footing.

Anyway, if you're interested here is an example of the first approach I was taking. This is probably the most heavily tweaked class though, some are as simple as a spell list with no special mechanics. What do you think?

Alchemy
Alchemy is the oldest of the non-religious magical traditions. Through the study of the interaction of various substances and the practice of transmutation, the alchemist learns to transform substance, and by extension to transform the soul itself.
Learning Alchemy: Alchemists learn their art through careful study, experimentation, and observation. Tutelage as an apprentice under an accomplished alchemist is by far the most common means of learning the art, although some alchemists are self-taught through the acquisition and study of a tome of lore on the subject. Some of the better-known treatises on the art of alchemy are Essence and Substance, Principia du Speculatis en Materia, and Malvoli’s Crucible. The wizard colleges in the Central Kingdoms also offer studies in the alchemical arts, and many wizards are also accomplished alchemists.
Features:
· Alchemists with the brew potion feat may create potions as if their base cost was lower than the actual base cost for purposes of determining gold piece and xp cost. The amount of discount is dependent on the number of skill ranks the character has in the alchemy skill.
Alchemy Brew Potion
Skill Ranks Cost
0-3 90%
4-6 85%
7-9 80%
10-12 75%
13-15 70%
16-18 65%
19+ 60%
· The casting time for all alchemical spells is 1 action, which consists of activating the special material component described below.
· All alchemical spells have a material and somatic component, and no other components, regardless of the spell description. Feats that eliminate spell components can not be applied applied to spells cast from this tradition, nor any other ability that modifies a spell’s required components.
· All alchemy spells have a special material component that must be prepared ahead of time with the alchemy skill. These components are not interchangeable between different spells and must be made separately for each spell. This process requires access to alchemical equipment, exotic materials, and an uninterrupted span of time. All alchemy spells also have a somatic component, which is required to activate the material component, but they never have a verbal component. The skill check, time, and cost for constructing the material components required for alchemist spells of each spell level are listed below. A failed DC check indicates that the resulting spell component will not work and the time and gold spent are wasted.

Spell Alchemy Creation Creation
Level DC Time Cost*
0 12 5 minutes 1 sp
1 14 10 minutes 2 sp
2 16 15 minutes 5 sp
3 18 30 minutes 1 gp
4 20 1 hour 2 gp
5 22 2 hours 5 gp
6 24 4 hours 10 gp
7 26 6 hours 20 gp
8 28 8 hours 50 gp
9 30 12 hours 100 gp
* The creation cost does not include the cost of any material components or foci the spell might have, which must also be provided during the alchemical spell component preparation process, but are not required during the actual casting of the spell.

0-Level
Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Poison, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Resistance
1st-Level
Change Self, Cure Light Wounds, Endure Elements, Enlarge, Erase, Goodberry, Magic Fang, Magic Stone, Magic Weapon, Nystul’s Magical Aura, Nystul’s Undetectable Aura, Reduce
2nd-Level
Alter Self, Barkskin, Bull’s Strength, Cat’s Grace, Chill Metal, Cure Moderate Wounds, Darkvision, Delay Poison, Endurance, Gentle Repose, Heat Metal, Lesser Restoration, Resist Elements, Shatter, Warp Wood, Wood Shape,
3rd-Level
Cure Serious Wounds, Gaseous Form, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Magic Fang, Haste, Keen Edge, Magical Vestment, Protection from Elements, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Shrink Item, Slow, Water Breathing
4th-Level
Cure Critical Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Poison, Polymorph Other, Polymorph Self, Restoration, Rusting Grasp, Stoneskin
5th-Level
Animal Growth, Fabricate, Passwall, Seeming, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud
6th-Level
Flesh to Stone, Heal, Ironwood, Mass Haste, Stone to Flesh, Tenser’s Transformation, Veil
7th-Level
Greater Restoration, Regenerate, Simulacrum, Statue, Transmute Metal to Wood,
8th-Level
Clone, Eternal Youth*, Iron Body, Polymorph Any Object,
9th-Level
Raise Dead, Shape Change

*new spell

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention. The spell list is so small because magi could learn more than one tradition by taking feats. So this alchemist might also have ability as a Byurinese Witch too, for example.

 

[s/LaSH]

How do the skills relate to the power levels of the spells? Do you need to roll and get a certain number of successes for a given spell effect (otherwise fail casting), or do your ranks in a magic skill directly effect how powerful a spell you can cast (i.e. you need 3+ ranks to shrink something by up to 50%, 5+ ranks to shrink something by 75%, etc.)

I like the idea of different spheres and it looks like it would be easy to plug in a new sphere for each occult tradition.

Essentially, you declare the basic gist of the spell (in terms of whatever components you're using), then you roll for it. You then spend the successes on each component you included (you have to do this, unless you didn't roll enough successes to cover them all at 1 each). The number of successes you put into each component dictates how powerful the effect of the spell is.

Most of the spell effects operate by overcoming basic qualities of the target such as the Body stat or an attribute. Beat it by however many times and you get however many repititions of the effect. For example, if someone has a Strength of 8 and you score 20 successes, you can modify their Strength up or down by two fifths (because you scored over twice the attribute).

The default spell affects only the caster, and only for a moment. You can drop dice from your pool before rolling (thus reducing the effect's eventual power) to increase range, area and duration.

That's the basics of the system. It's possible to modify it to d20 (I did it myself, although it's a quick hack), and is intended to do nearly anything, although I'm sure anyone could find holes in it if they wanted.

The thing about the Spheres is that they describe broad approaches to magic. Altogether, they represent the 'elemental' school of thought. If you want to rebuild them, one Sphere per magical tradition might not be the best approach - that concentrates an awful lot of power under one skill. The point of a skill component is that it's a very specific application of that skill, and more importantly, it's something only that skill does for you.

Two or three Spheres per tradition might be more apt; in the case of the Byurinese, perhaps one Sphere devoted to deception and another to curses (both things these Byurinese witches apparently do well). The existing components can be easily juggled about to fit into these Spheres of Deception (things like Illusion, Modify (self-only) and Telepathy) and Curses (things like Enhance, Scry (to find a target) and Sigil to mark a cursed one). It's only two Spheres, of course, but they're limited in application and taking one skill won't make you uber-powerful. Further, specialising into those components will allow for a great deal of customisation. No two Byrurinese witches need be quite the same in their talents.

I did write a section in the full version cautioning against reconfiguring the Spheres, as simply giving the ability to summon fire elementals to the Fire Sphere would completely change the meaning of that Sphere and reduce the utility of the Water Sphere which is supposed to be the summoning skill. Be careful if you want to change this.

Does that pique anyone's interest? I don't think I should reveal more about the magic rules, because I think they're pretty cool and if at all possible I'd like to charge through the nose for the full thing. (sigh) Times are tough, after all.

 

[kenjib]

Thanks for all the info on your system. I think it sounds interesting. I have yet to play a dice pool game, but Riddle of Steel has caught my eye. I like the idea of buying off parts of the spell when you cast it, so that your spell may not end up exactly as you intended it, but it still goes off.

 

[Balgus]

I'd throw my hat into the Wheel of TIme. It just makes more sense to do.

You have a theme which you learn, and as you get more powerful, so does your spells. You dont choose spells, they just progressively get more powerful as you level up. But you can always over-exert yourself ansd try to do something out of your capabilities. Doing so proves dangerous, and maybe even life threatening...

 

[kenjib]

Sounds cool Balgus. How easy would it be to adapt the system to one of my own themes? What if I wanted, for example, an occult tradition where people can abilities related to serpents, such as spitting venom, growing fangs, turning into a constrictor, sensing heat emissions, contracting ribs to squeeze through small spaces, swallowing enemies whole, etc.? Do I need to create a bunch of spells from scratch or are there tools to help me?

 

[s/LaSH]

Thanks for all the info on your system. I think it sounds interesting. I have yet to play a dice pool game, but Riddle of Steel has caught my eye. I like the idea of buying off parts of the spell when you cast it, so that your spell may not end up exactly as you intended it, but it still goes off.

If the rest of the system appeals, let me know, but be warned: It's rather intense. There's a lot to get used to just in the basic rules. If that's no barrier... well, the system isn't publishable yet, although it is playable. Fair warning: Don't expect it to be available for quite a while, so don't make plans unless you're willing to wait.

Off the top of my head, I know of only one other system that offers quick, easy support for these varied magic types. You could start with any other system, but it would take a lot of work, just like designing a new class, with new spells, for D&D.

Mutants and Masterminds, though, is close to d20 (so close it uses nothing but the d20) and could theoretically do a good job of this sort of thing. It's available and I can say it's very good. With a little imagination you could throw out nearly anything with M&M. Just make a custom power (it's very easy) and put the necessary effects into it; the Sorcery power is already in there. However, it's closer to Twilight in that powers are things you have and use just about as often as you want. Not close to D&D at all in that regard.

If the rest of the world's 'feel' would mesh with M&M's feel, it's a quick and (to my mind) entirely acceptable solution.

Hope this helps...

 

[Gothmog]

Don't know if this is quite what you are looking for, but I completely modified the arcane spellcasting classes for my game. There are no wizards, instead I made up a number of traditions of magic, each of them more or less associated with a certain culture in my world. Each has different abilities, spell lists, strengths, and weaknesses. Here's a brief overview (excised from my magical theory document):

Probably the oldest and most structured form of magic, Ritualism, or Cabalism as it is sometimes called, deals with the manipulation of magical forces by ritual and words of power. Cabalism has its origins in the Thrassan culture, although it is rumored that an even older race taught this form of magic to the Thrassans. Cabalism is a very symbolic type of magic, requiring lengthy rituals in order to cast a spell. Most cabalistic magic is concerned with affecting others with sympathetic magic, or affecting the caster by sympathetic or antipathic magics. Due to the rituals Cabalists conduct, Cabalistic magic is the most potent form of magic and least likely to fail. However, the rituals required in Cabalism limit its usefulness in situations where time is a factor.

The Classical tradition originally has its roots in Cabalism. While the Thrassans occupied the Thulaer lands, Thrassan Cabalists often took on Thulaer apprentices. After the Thulaer defeated the Thrassans and founded the Daerlunish Empire, Cabalism was the dominant form of magic in the Daerlunish Empire until CY 257, when Helena, a great Daerlunish sorceress, proposed a new type of magic that was not limited by lengthy rituals and was far more flexible in its applications. Members of the Classical tradition, known as magi, are able to employ spontaneous magic to great effect, and are masters of magical theory. Of all the traditions of magic, the magi have the best understanding of the way magic works, and their spells reflect this enhanced knowledge.

Another ancient form of magic, practiced mostly in the Adunic and Dunal lands, is Witchcraft. Witchcraft deals with the control and utilization of natural forces, life, and to some degree, death. Witches have the best understanding of all spellcasters of spirits, entities which are native to this world and often inhabit various natural sites. In fact, it is the spirits that give witches their power, by means of bargains and pacts. Witches are able to call upon the elements to do their bidding, and can control the weather, plants, and animals. Nearly ninety percent of all witches are female, with only a handful of warlocks. Witches often live secluded, lonely lives, away from other people to avoid persecution. During the time when the Daerlunish Empire was expanding into Dunal and Adunic lands, witches were hunted down by Imperial magi, and forced to convert peacefully or die. Many were not willing to give up their way of life or their ties to the spirit world, and were subsequently slain. Today, Witchcraft still exists, although it is usually practiced in secret.

Sorcery is a from of magic that emphasizes domination of people, destruction of the physical world, and necromancy. Some scholars note that many Cabalistic and Sorcery rituals are very similar, speculating that Sorcery may have its roots in the ancient Thrassan magic. Practiced almost exclusively by the Vosyar, Sorcery is a dark and violent tradition used to keep Vosyar subjects under control and to conquer new lands. Due to the fact that Vosyar society is patriarchal, only men are permitted to learn Sorcery. Sorcerers have a vast knowledge of human and animal bodies, which they use in their necromantic rituals. Sorcerers also often have contact with the undead, and are able to control or create fell enchantments. As a rule, people who dominate and control others, practice necromancy, and destroy those who oppose them tend to be rather unpleasant people, and sorcerers are no exception. The practice of Sorcery is forbidden in most non-Vosyar lands, the penalty being death.

The Romari form of magic has no clear distinctions or boundaries, and hence is difficult to classify. The Romari have lived under the dominion of the Vosyar for hundreds of years, and their magical traditions reflects this. The Romari seem to have an innate understanding of the supernatural, and are reluctant to teach their secrets to any non-Romari. Romari magic is largely defensive in nature, with numerous protections, wards, and curses. This tradition also has many spells that charm or enchant an object or person, with the purpose of avoiding punishment or detection. Finally, this tradition has many divinatory magics, in order to predict what is to come. In summary, Romari magic tends to be subtle and diversionary, in order to distract their Vosyar lords from learning the truth.

Finally, the last tradition of magic is the Runic tradition. Unlike all other magics, Runic magic seems to follow very different rules that are peculiar to it. Practitioners of Runic magic are known as runecasters, drawing their power from the sacred runes said to have been given to them by Odjurik. Very few people of the southern lands have learned the secrets of the runes from the Norhaid, but those who have learned of the runes gain considerable magical power. The runes themselves are not innately magical, but become symbols of power when scribed by a knowledgeable caster. Each rune is symbolic of a given object or force, and when combined in the proper sequence, can produce potent enchantments. Runes are often carved on objects in order to bestow an enchantment, but they can be made in less permanent media in order to produce a more timely effect.

At this point, it is prudent to advise you that a seventh, quasi-magical tradition does exist, Diabolism. Diabolism is not actually type of magic pursued by learned men, but rather an ability granted by a demonic patron in return for the practitioner's soul or some other sacrifice. Diabolists are often desperate, depraved people who are concerned only with furthering their own desires at other people's expense. Diabolists also take enjoyment in corrupting basically good, honest folk, turning them into pitiful, deranged versions of who they used to be. Diabolist magics tend to be subtle, manipulative, and possibly attractive, but ultimately all diabolical magics are destructive and evil.

If anybody is interested in these, I can post more details.