Best Spell to Maximize

[Caliban]

PS: I particularly liked the bit where he says that Expertise stacks with Fighting Defensively. That it says the opposite in the PHB he happily dismisses "Some people think that..."

His ruling that you don't actually have to be in combat to use Expertise seems almost sane by comparison, albeit a clear contradiction of the PHB's intent "...when you use the attack action or full attack action in melee..."

I'm sure there are countless more gems in there, but I've found the bit about sending damage through the roof by applying Empower Spell as often as you like, so I'll stop there.

I have to hand it to Skip, the man is shameless. He seems to be doing his best to singlehandedly trash the carefully balanced system the PHB propounds - which, after many months, I have finally been convinced is a finely balanced work of craftsmanship. But it's finely balanced _as written_, not after Skip "Ogres are CR 2!" has gotten a-hold of it...

Sorry for hijacking, back to scheculed programming.

*shrug* everything you mentioned is legal by the core rules. Skip didn't change any of that. You seem to be the one who doesn't understand the way they work.

 

[S'mon]

Damage through the roof? Nay I say.

4x Empowered Magic Missle takes a 9th level slot.
Can do an average damage of 52.5 [(5d4+5)* 3] to a single target and allow no save.

Meteor Swarm also takes a 9th level slot.
Can do an average damage of 84 (24d6) to a single target with no save.

"Send damage through the roof" is Skip's own words, not mine! BTW until I came across Skip's unique take on Empower I couldn't understand why people thought Magic Missile was an overpowered spell for its level.

 

[S'mon]

*shrug* everything you mentioned is legal by the core rules. Skip didn't change any of that. You seem to be the one who doesn't understand the way they work.

Obviously Skip's stated opinion is that this is how the core rules are intended to work, that's why it's called a FAQ and not "The Big Book of Skip's Rule Changes"!. That's like me complaining about the verdict in the OJ Simpson case and you saying "You're wrong to complain - OJ was innocent - the court said so." You only have it on Skip's authority that this is how the rules were intended to work. This stuff isn't in the Errata.

I don't accept Skip's authority to restate the rules because he seems to be making it up as he goes along. If it was one thing that appeared to breach the intent of the PHB, maybe I misinterpreted the intent of the PHB. But it's dozens of things.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I suspect that what Caliban is saying is that all of the specific rulings you mentioned seemed obvious to him (and many others) as the plain meaning of the PHB text.

As to the original question, I don't see the problem with multiple empowers. A triple empowered Fox's Cunning sends a wizard's DCs through the roof but it's also an 8th level spell. It could've been Horrid Wilting or Mind Blank instead. Similarly, a triple empowered fireball will do almost 25d6 points of damage with a DC 13+int bonus save for 1/2. That seems pretty balanced with a meteor swarm (24d6 no save to a single target, less damage to others with a DC 19+int bonus save for 1/2)--it's good damage for a 9th level spell, but it costs a feat and the save is much easier. I fail to see the imbalance. . . .

As for the other metamagic feats, most don't stack well together. You could have a 50' spread fireball as a 9th level spell (widen spell) or a really really long and wide lightning bolt (enlarge spell) but most of those aren't worth the increased spell level. Extend Spell is about the only metamagic feat (other than empower) that works well with itself. It allows high level sorcerors to give themselves minor buffs (bull's strength, cat's grace, eagle's splendor, endure elements, energy buffer, mage armor) for about a week with left over spell slots before they go to bed. Even so, that's not too much of a problem. Sorcerors have very few feats to begin with and any sorceror who abuses it is likely to find himself attacked in the middle of the night when he's just used all his high level spell slots.

So yes, metamagic feats are useful, and stacking them can be useful, but there's nothing broken about it.

Obviously Skip's stated opinion is that this is how the core rules are intended to work, that's why it's called a FAQ and not "The Big Book of Skip's Rule Changes"!. That's like me complaining about the verdict in the OJ Simpson case and you saying "You're wrong to complain - OJ was innocent - the court said so." You only have it on Skip's authority that this is how the rules were intended to work. This stuff isn't in the Errata.

I don't accept Skip's authority to restate the rules because he seems to be making it up as he goes along. If it was one thing that appeared to breach the intent of the PHB, maybe I misinterpreted the intent of the PHB. But it's dozens of things.

 

[S'mon]

You can of course stack _different_ metamagic feats on the same spell - a maximized empowered fireball, etc. But there is absolutely nothing in the PHB to indicate that you can stack the _same_ feat multiple times onto a spell, this "X4 Empowered" stuff - indeed the PHB says that you cannot stack a feat unless specifically indicated otherwise (eg Toughness). It's not so much a question of balance vs other high-level spells - Sorcerers and Wizards may not have that many high-level spells to choose from, so for the Sorcerer especially empowering is very handy.

 

[hong]

You can of course stack _different_ metamagic feats on the same spell - a maximized empowered fireball, etc. But there is absolutely nothing in the PHB to indicate that you can stack the _same_ feat multiple times onto a spell, this "X4 Empowered" stuff - indeed the PHB says that you cannot stack a feat unless specifically indicated otherwise (eg Toughness). It's not so much a question of balance vs other high-level spells - Sorcerers and Wizards may not have that many high-level spells to choose from, so for the Sorcerer especially empowering is very handy.

The consensus in this forum, and all other discussion forums I know of, is that there's no material difference between applying multiple different metamagic feats, and applying one metamagic feat multiple times. This has been the case for as long as I can recall.

 

[Black Omega]

The consensus in this forum, and all other discussion forums I know of, is that there's no material difference between applying multiple different metamagic feats, and applying one metamagic feat multiple times. This has been the case for as long as I can recall.

True. I don't even find a single thing in the PHB that indicates otherwise. It -is- true you can't 'stack' Improved Init or other feats like that unless specified otherwise ( as with toughness) but that's a totally different issue from if I can Empower a spell multiple times.

 

[Plane Sailing]

BTW until I came across Skip's unique take on Empower...

FWIW my plain reading of the PHB was that there was no problem in stacking the same or different metamagic feats as long as the result made sense - i.e. Maximise didn't stack with itself because there would be no sense in it, others are basically OK to stack multiple times.

It was only on these boards that I ever came across anyone wondering otherwise!

 

[Gez]

S'mon, the bit in the PHB about feats not stacking is for not taking multiple times the same feat (i.e., you can't get two cleave attacks against someone by taking the cleave feat twice).

But you can use multiple metamagic feats on a same spell, including multiple use of the same feat.

By the way, when you use both Maximize and something else (Empower, Energy Admixture, Twin, Repeat, etc.), you maximize only the normal effect of the spell, and roll normally the extra damage. So a maximized empowered acid-admixted fireball would deal 60 fire damage, plus 10d6 /2 fire damage, plus 10d6 acid damage (and it would require a 12th-level spell slot...).

The bit on Cleave and Great Cleave (and even, heck, Whirlwind Cleave ! This demands you to built your character specifically to that end given the number of feat it requires in the sum of these two feat chains) don't pose problem. They are a kind of attack of opportunity. And Cleave would suck if you couldn't used it on a charge.

However, I'm strongly against using Cleave when you down someone on an AoO.

 

[S'mon]

I could argue about how the PHB has a consistent approach that spells and powers do "exactly what it says on the tin" - no less, and no more. So if a feat says "x1.5 dmg, +2 caster level" - that's what it does, and all it does, with no implied "and another +.5 damage per +2 CLs". But I'm sure I'm not going to convince anyone and despite a few grumblings, the general preference seems to accept Skip's rulings. Maybe if I read the PHB with the eyes of a power-hungry player rather than as a GM (even when I play, I still think like a GM) I too would be arguing for those x4 Empowered magic missiles. I agree that it's not dreadfully imbalancing to allow multiple Empowerment - not nearly as much as allowing a Charge & Great Cleave in the same round, say.