Best Spell to Maximize

[Shaele]

S'mon--
BTW until I came across Skip's unique take on Empower I couldn't understand why people thought Magic Missile was an overpowered spell for its level.
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Maybe if I read the PHB with the eyes of a power-hungry player rather than as a GM (even when I play, I still think like a GM) I too would be arguing for those x4 Empowered magic missiles.
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Go back and do the math again... A 4x empowered magic missile is 9th level, and does triple magic missile damage (100% + 4*50% bonus or 300%). This works out to 52.5 points of damage on average. Compare this to any other 9th level spell and it's actually pretty weak. Heck, my 1st level sorcerer with Shield running is immune to it!

The reason people talk about magic missile being overpowered has nothing to do with empowering it - as a _1st_ level spell, it does more damage than any similiar spell or it's level, plus has long range, and no save for most characters.

[edit: corrected a typo, need coffee before posting...]

 

[Dr. Zoom]

S'mon, you do understand that choosing a feat multiple times and applying or using a feat multiple times are two differant things, right?

Your argument that you cannot use Empower Spell more than once on a spell holds no water if you appeal to the statement in the PH that you can only choose a feat once unless it says otherwise. You also agree that multiple metamagic feats may be applied to a single spell if the caster has the higher spell slot available. Why then can you not apply the same metamagic feat more than once if the spell slot is available? The PH does not forbid this anywhere. Should not a high level spellcaster be able to empower his spells better than a lower level one? I simply do not see why you object. And the charge of munchkinism here is simply rediculous, as others have shown.

 

[S'mon]

S'mon, you do understand that choosing a feat multiple times and applying or using a feat multiple times are two differant things, right?

Your argument that you cannot use Empower Spell more than once on a spell holds no water if you appeal to the statement in the PH that you can only choose a feat once unless it says otherwise. You also agree that multiple metamagic feats may be applied to a single spell if the caster has the higher spell slot available. Why then can you not apply the same metamagic feat more than once if the spell slot is available? The PH does not forbid this anywhere. Should not a high level spellcaster be able to empower his spells better than a lower level one? I simply do not see why you object. And the charge of munchkinism here is simply rediculous, as others have shown.

I think my "does exactly what it says on the tin" comment (advert for Ronseal Wood Glaze here in the UK!) is my final word on the subject. The policy of not inserting extra unstated meanings/benefits into stated powers is a good one, I think. If Empower Spell said "you can apply this feat multiple times to the same spell", that'd be different. It doesn't say that and IMO the author didn't intend it to, anymore than he intended you to be Cleaving off standard actions.

 

[Caliban]

It doesn't say that and IMO the author didn't intend it to, anymore than he intended you to be Cleaving off standard actions.

Where do you get the idea that the author didn't intend this? The Cleave feat states that if you drop a creature you get an immediate, extra attack. It doesn't state that this happens only on a full attack action. The only limitation is once per round.
It seems pretty obvious that it works any time you drop someone, with any attack, once per round.

You are the one adding extra limitations to the feat, and trying to claim that you know the authors intentions better than anyone else.

 

[IceBear]

And, I believe, that Skip was one of said authors (not the main one, but one of them....I think).

Caliban, he also doesn't believe in exceptions to rules - if a rule says X, then it can never be broken so therefore he does not see the *immediate* part of the feat overriding the general rule.

Meanwhile, the WWA feat clearly states you must use a FRA, so the precedent is there that if the author *intended* for it to take a FRA, he would have put it in the feat.

IceBear

 

[Westwind]

Best spell to maximieze: Soulstrike from Relics and Rituals..19 points of Con damage will drop a lot of people. Expensive to do, you need either Epic Levels, a really expensive rod, or the right prestige class, but the look on the player/DMs face is priceless!

 

[S'mon]

People had me believing that multiple Empowering wasn't munchkin/unbalancing (albeit wasn't intended to be allowed by the PHB), and used Magic Missile as an example. Then I came across this gem in General, from Numion:

(Cleric) At 15th level:

Triple empowered Bull's Strength
Triple empowered Endurance

I rest my case.

 

[S'mon]

And, I believe, that Skip was one of said authors (not the main one, but one of them....I think).

Caliban, he also doesn't believe in exceptions to rules - if a rule says X, then it can never be broken so therefore he does not see the *immediate* part of the feat overriding the general rule.

Meanwhile, the WWA feat clearly states you must use a FRA, so the precedent is there that if the author *intended* for it to take a FRA, he would have put it in the feat.

IceBear

My reading is that WWA requires you to give up _all*_ your other attacks in the full attack action to make a WWA. Cleave can be used in conjunction with all your other attacks, whenever you take a full attack action.

*All as in extra attacks from off-hand, cleave etc as well as iterative.

 

[hong]

(Cleric) At 15th level:

Triple empowered Bull's Strength
Triple empowered Endurance

I rest my case.

For an average of 1 + 2.5 * 2.5 = +7.25 points to each attribute, which doesn't stack with either a belt of giant strength, or amulet of health, and is still vulnerable to dispel magic. And for that, you've used up two 8th level spell slots.

What was your point again?

 

[S'mon]

For an average of 1 + 2.5 * 2.5 = +7.25 points to each attribute, which doesn't stack with either a belt of giant strength, or amulet of health, and is still vulnerable to dispel magic. And for that, you've used up two 8th level spell slots.

What was your point again?

My point: I think +7 or +8 to a stat (better than any non-artifact magic item can do!) for 15 hours is pretty bloody powerful for a 15th level cleric's spell!