Better, detailed firearms mechanics?

[Cergorach]

I don't know of any d20 model that provides rules for that, not even with swords, arrows and lightening bolts.

Torn Asunder: Critical Hits
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[CarlZog]

D&D/d20 is more heroic. Hit points are a highly abstract system which doesn't really translate well into real-world terms.

Very true. And, philosophically, I don't have a problem with that, but an abstracted damage system shouldn't be folded into a more detailed tactical movement system.

This is the stuff about d20 I'm having trouble reconciling. There are reams of rules on combat movement, cover, flanking, line of sight, attacks of opportunity, multiple attacks, etc. Then the final goal of all this maneuvering (inflicting and avoiding damage) is boiled down to a simple number of hit points whose loss isn't noticed 'til you pass out.

Overall, I like the system, and I don't want to dumb down the rest of the combat rules, but I'd like to find a damage system that reflects and contributes to the tactical decision-making.

zog

 

[jmucchiello]

Overall, I like the system, and I don't want to dumb down the rest of the combat rules, but I'd like to find a damage system that reflects and contributes to the tactical decision-making.

But does it have to be as detailed as hit locations? Perhaps you'd prefer a Damage check mechanic as found in Mutants and Masterminds?

 

[CarlZog]

But does it have to be as detailed as hit locations? Perhaps you'd prefer a Damage check mechanic as found in Mutants and Masterminds?

I don't necessarily need hit locations. I haven't played Mutants, but I have started looking at Alternity, whose "Durability" system of different types of damage seems like it might be a big step toward my goals.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.

zog

 

[mmadsen]

There are reams of rules on combat movement, cover, flanking, line of sight, attacks of opportunity, multiple attacks, etc. Then the final goal of all this maneuvering (inflicting and avoiding damage) is boiled down to a simple number of hit points whose loss isn't noticed 'til you pass out.

Well said. There's quite a disconnect between the hyper-detailed tactically aspects of the game and the nebulous nature of hits and damage.

But does it have to be as detailed as hit locations? Perhaps you'd prefer a Damage check mechanic as found in Mutants and Masterminds?

Simply switching to M&M's Damage Save is a move in the "right" direction (right for CarlZog's goals), and with a few tweaks it can offer extra (GM-adjudicated) detail. E.g., a "stunned" result could be replaced with a "crippled limb" result.

 

[Desdichado]

"Using your current small arms combat system, place the muzzle of a large calibre pistol between your character's eyes. Squeeze the trigger. Continue squeezing the trigger until the character falls unconscious. Then, have a friend put a band-aid over that nasty .45 calibre dent in his skull and try not to get him shot too often in the week or two it takes to heal."

If you're shooting like that, you're making a coup de grace and you won't keep shooting yourself unconscious. And, believe it or not, a fair amount of people survive head shots.

I'd say your problem isn't with the rules so much as it is interpreting them correctly.

 

[robberbaron]

My 2p:

The main problem I see with realistic firearms rules is that the game stops being fun for the players.

In the real world, you can die after one hit from pretty much any size of weapon.

For my money, gaming has to be a balance between getting it "right" and playing a game. Unfortunately, realism sometimes gets in the way and has to be regulated using the oft maligned "game mechanics".

How much fun would D&D be if a single sword thrust to the guts meant rolling a new character? (OK, that's not too far from how Runequest was, but somehow THAT managed to be enjoyable).

 

[mmadsen]

The main problem I see with realistic firearms rules is that the game stops being fun for the players.

In the real world, you can die after one hit from pretty much any size of weapon.

In the real world, you can survive dozens of stab wounds. Or a half-dozen gunshots. Or you can die from a single .22 bullet in the arm. The real world isn't simply more lethal than D&D; it's differently lethal.

A Damage Save like M&M's isn't analogous to low hit points -- and for the "name" characters, some of the randomness is smoothed out with hero points.