D&D 5E Binder Class Interest Check?

[Marandahir]

I don't see how that would make sense, because Binders dominate and coerce their vestiges to gain power, and they frequently switch vestiges. A warlock makes a deal with single Patron who gives him access to magical shortcuts for its own purposes.

4e used the Binder term for a more Wizardy-style Warlock and also had a separate Vestige-Pact Warlock for in Arcane Power.

It's not too far off the mark; it really speaks more to your interpretation of Warlock and how the pacts work.

You're speaking very specifically to the Tome of Magic Binder from 3.5e, but Binder has a longer history than just that one splatbook in 3.5e. Ultimately, it's really not that different, but I can see where you might get hung-up on the idea that your patron must be a single entity.

I could very easily see "The Vestige" patron for Warlocks being a class of beings that you can switch between and change your focus on, and maybe they each have their own invocations you can lean into or something of that nature.

 

[Iry]

Frankly, I think Subclasses should have the possibility to changing your casting stat. I can see a Warlock subclass that translates and finds loopholes in an ancient contract (Int), a Wizard sublass that finds and draws upon leylines (Wis), a Cleric that inspires others through deed and word (Cha), and a Sorcerer that draws upon the heritage of his blood (Con).

That last one is a bit of a joke, you see.

 

[Marandahir]

Frankly, I think Subclasses should have the possibility to changing your casting stat. I can see a Warlock subclass that translates and finds loopholes in an ancient contract (Int), a Wizard sublass that finds and draws upon leylines (Wis), a Cleric that inspires others through deed and word (Cha), and a Sorcerer that draws upon the heritage of his blood (Con).

That last one is a bit of a joke, you see.

I could also see an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer using Int instead of Cha.

Or even a full Psion built by swapping Cha for Int in the Sorcerer class.

 

[Eltab]

I keep circling back to wondering if I could make a ritual caster with invocations and no spell slot Spellcasting at all work...

I know I want the class to have ritual casting from level 1, and find familiar on its list, and subclass gives you what you are good at binding at level 1, and then you get better at it when you get your vessel at 3.

none of that necessarily requires normal Spellcasting.

Audience expectations

Intrigued player: What does a Binder do?
You: A Binder uses magic to draw power from almost-forgotten spirits
Player: If he uses magic, where are his spells?

Certainly you can design a Binder without spells - to be a 'Warlock variant' much like a spell-less Ranger variant - but if you advertise the class as 'a spellcaster' then people will expect a spell list for the class, as a guide to the "flavor" of the Binder based on the spells available.

I can see creating a Binder via Invocations or via spells; either way is good by me, and equally valid.
My knowledge coming in is the 4e Vestige'lock but I missed the 3e Binder. I'm thinking about how to make 'what is a Binder's shtick?' intuitive for people without much background in the concept.

 

[Marandahir]

Audience expectations

Intrigued player: What does a Binder do?
You: A Binder uses magic to draw power from almost-forgotten spirits
Player: If he uses magic, where are his spells?

Certainly you can design a Binder without spells - to be a 'Warlock variant' much like a spell-less Ranger variant - but if you advertise the class as 'a spellcaster' then people will expect a spell list for the class, as a guide to the "flavor" of the Binder based on the spells available.

I can see creating a Binder via Invocations or via spells; either way is good by me, and equally valid.
My knowledge coming in is the 4e Vestige'lock but I missed the 3e Binder. I'm thinking about how to make 'what is a Binder's shtick?' intuitive for people without much background in the concept.

Spells don't necessitate Spellcasting.

For example, Warlocks don't have Spellcasting, but they do have Spells.
Warlocks instead have Pact Magic. Which, by the way, is the magic category that 3.5e Binders used (fyi, Clerics and Paladins were said to use lesser Pact Magic due to their solemn vows and oaths).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Spells don't necessitate Spellcasting.

For example, Warlocks don't have Spellcasting, but they do have Spells.
Warlocks instead have Pact Magic. Which, by the way, is the magic category that 3.5e Binders used (fyi, Clerics and Paladins were said to use lesser Pact Magic due to their solemn vows and oaths).

I figure you mean well, so I say this with respect. I’m not here for semantics, pact magic is Spellcasting.

Anyway, for now I will stick with pact magic, but I think they will gain ritual casting at level 1, and a vestige, and their subclass, and get pact magic at level 2.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

UPDOOT:

Level 1: You gain

• a Goetic Key, which is a book that contains your secrets and is a casting focus,
• Ritual casting (find familiar and 3 or 4 other level 1 spells, learn new spells like a Wizard)
• your Binding Seal (subclass),
• and 1 Vestige.

level 2, you get a second vestige, 2 spell slots, and pact magic, with a twist. You learn and prepare spells. You learn 2/level, can explicitly learn more during downtime via a new downtime activity, and can learn more during play like a Wizard or ritual caster, and prepare 1/2 level + Int spells. You don’t need to prepare spells to cast them ritually.

Level 3, vessel. I’ve decided against making them overlap with warlock pact boons, but they’re still gonna be kinda similar in role. Only 2 I have a clear image of are the instrument, which buffs summoned creatures and spells that control or banish creatures, and The Impliment, which is a ceremonial weapon usually a dagger, scythe, sickle, spear, glaive, or whip, that empowers you directly and allows you to be tougher and fight better.

Level 5, optional variant rule available to all Pact Magic spellcasters, gain a spell slot at level 5.

level 6, Subclass ability. Beefy boost.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Bell, Blade, and Bowl, are the tools of the Binder.

All Binders can use these tools, but each must choose one to focus on, a vessel for their power, in order to progress beyond the realm of the petty dabbler.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, I’ve been hard at work on the Binder, but haven’t posted here about it.

Here’s an updoot.

The class is still d6 HD, but now casts with Int, and has become even more of a ritualist.

Level 1, you get your Binding Seal (subclass), ritual casting with a Wizard/tomelock style book called a Goetic Key, and 1 Vestige of Power. Part of the ritual casting feature is that your rituals use three ritual tools, those being a musical instrument, a bladed weapon, and a receptacle of liquid, ie a Bell, Blade, and Bowl.

Level 2, you get Pact Magic, with 2 spells slots, and you prepare your spells and can learn new ones in the same way as with your ritual spells, and another Vestige. You can use the above ritual tools as Spellcasting focus for your spells.

Level 3, you get your first Vessel, which is one of three ritual tools. Your Vessel is a magic item that you can summon to hand at will, can be replaced as a 1-hour ritual, etc.

• The Vessel of The Bell, gives you Int to concentration on conjuration spells and on Spellcasting ability checks made as part of casting a spell, such as that of Counterspell or Dispel magic.
• The Vessel of The Blade, gives you an extra cantrip that requires an attack against a single creature, and you can cast it as a melee spell attack that also counts as a melee weapon attack, as an action. The wording is being tuned to make it do what I want, but the idea is you cast chill touch with you dagger or glaive or scythe and it has the reach of your weapon, including any thrown range, and you can use it any time you could make a melee weapon attack, and it works with smite spells and the like.
• Vessel of The Bowl, gives you an extra spell slot
  

Each vessel also allows you to learn a short list of spells, and has Vestiges that require a given Vessel. You can choose a second vessel at 9th level, and a third at 13th, eventually mastering all three ritual tools.

As you level you gain Vestiges at the same rate as warlock invocations, except at level 9, where you get a second vessel instead, and possible at a couple other points where I’ll add in some advanced ritual magic.

At levels 5, 11, 15 and 17, you gain Seals of The Greater Vestige. These “replace” the warlocks mystic arcanum, and are greater summoning abilities that you can use once per short rest. You gain a Seal known, and can only ever use a given one 1/day, but you can gain more seals known and basically prepare them like a spell.

Level 18 gives a base class capstone called something like Seal of The Final Gate or something, and level 20 is your final subclass ability.

Vestiges: an example generic vestige is the Reigns of The Erlking, which grants you the ability to speak to and understand predatory beasts, and grants proficiency in Survival and Animal Handling.

Others might grant the ability to cast a spell at-Will or as a ritual, steal ideas from warlock invocations, or grant abilities normally reserved for monsters. I’d like to include stuff that is a “ritual you can perform as part of a short or long rest” as well. Still others might increase the power of common ritual spells, like doubling the strength and duration time of Unseen Servant and allowing you to burn a spell slot to give it the ability to attack, with numbers based on spell level, or cause Alarm to force a save vs Stunned on intruders.

The second main set of Vestiges are Vestiges of The 9 Circles, which give you access to higher level spells. Eg, Vestige of the 6th Circle lets you learn 1 6th level spell, and allow you to cast a 6th level spell 1/day. You can learn more 6th level spells by adding them to your Key, but you can prepare 1 6th level spells and cast it once per long rest.

The last variety of Vestige or vessel vestiges, which require mastery of a given vessel.
A blade Vessel might boost your melee prowess with access to spells known you couldn’t otherwise get, and/or some other buff, flavored so it’s a significant magic item.