Blade barrier - I don't get it...

[Lord Pendragon]

Lord P,

Check out the spell, it is a 6' diameter ball of flame. How are you fitting in a 5' square area with that? And not taking damage? How is that sensible?
Note, it is a "burning globe of fire" and it says it damages when it enters the same square, it does not say it has to hit the person.(" It enters a space...deals 2d6 fire damage") Now, if you want to say that 'entering' is what does the damage, okay; but I fail to see how it only does fire damage while entering, and not while sitting there burning. It explicitly states that the ball itself does no damage, only the flame damages. And it also states that it is still burning while just sitting there.

I'm quite familiar with the spell description. You fit in by standing on the edge of the square, rather than dead center. After all, D&D combat has already stated that combat characters aren't simply standing in their 5' squares. They're moving, shifting, etc. (This is why an archer gets a -4 to attack a foe engaged in melee with an ally, even if the ally is on the opposite side of the foe.) So the sphere is taking up most of your 5' square, but you're avoiding touching it. If you're not touching it, you aren't being burned by its flames, either.

 

[Caliban]

I'm quite familiar with the spell description. You fit in by standing on the edge of the square, rather than dead center. After all, D&D combat has already stated that combat characters aren't simply standing in their 5' squares. They're moving, shifting, etc. (This is why an archer gets a -4 to attack a foe engaged in melee with an ally, even if the ally is on the opposite side of the foe.) So the sphere is taking up most of your 5' square, but you're avoiding touching it. If you're not touching it, you aren't being burned by its flames, either.

I don't really see how standing "on the edge" of the square will help you in this case, since a 6' diameter sphere of flame extends past the "edge" of a 5' wide square. Even if you are standing right on the edge of the square, you are one foot inside the sphere.

You would have to be standing in an adjacent square to avoid it.

 

[Caliban]

A wall of force has no thickness, but it provides full cover for anyone beyond it.

The Blade Barrier provides half-cover, because it's not a single contiguous wall - at any given instant, there are holes where there aren't any spinning blades. Enough for some arrows to get through, but not all. Enough to prevent AoOs against opponents behind it, but not to stop every melee attack made through it.



It provides a barrier of Nd6 damage to anyone passing through.

It won't stop you crossing, but it will let you know it was a Bad Idea...



I strongly disagree. I don't think the wording says that at all - especially not clearly.



That's right - when the spell first springs into being. If you don't leave, you take the damage.



Why? The spell deals damage when certain conditions are met. If one of those conditions is not met, no damage is dealt.

Like a Flaming Sphere - if the caster moves it into a square with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals damage. If the caster doesn't spend an MEA to move it, it doesn't deal damage - even if it's still in the square with the same creature.

-Hyp.

I prefer not to play D&D as if it were a CRPG, where a spell effects are applied blindly, without any interpretation.


I prefer to play D&D as if it were an actual roleplaying game, played by actual people who can make reasonable conclusions about how a spell will work, beyond what is specifically spelled out in the spell.

In the instance of Blade Barrier, nothing in the spell stats that the blades will reform themselfs around stationary people. The logical conclusion is that they will continue to slice away at anything or anyone who remains within the area of the effect, in spite of this not being specifically spelled out by the spell description. As an intelligent person, it seems clear to me that is the most likely of the two possibilities.

In the case of Flaming Sphere, the spell states that it's a 6' diameter sphere of fire. Since that completely fills any square it's in, if you aren't moving to avoid it (i.e. leaving the square or making a reflex save), then you are taking fire damage. Pretty simple.

But hey, that's just me. What do I know?

 

[Hypersmurf]

You don't need to be on the edge of your square.

The spell specifically says that the sphere "cannot push aside unwilling creatures". If you're standing in the centre of your square, the sphere can only enter your space far enough to make contact. It cannot force you away from the centre of the square. It deals damage and stops moving for the round. At that point, over half of your square is unfilled by Flaming Sphere, and you can move in that empty half without taking damage. It can't follow you to take up that remaining space, because it has "stopped moving for the round".

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

You don't need to be on the edge of your square.

The spell specifically says that the sphere "cannot push aside unwilling creatures". If you're standing in the centre of your square, the sphere can only enter your space far enough to make contact. It cannot force you away from the centre of the square. It deals damage and stops moving for the round. At that point, over half of your square is unfilled by Flaming Sphere, and you can move in that empty half without taking damage. It can't follow you to take up that remaining space, because it has "stopped moving for the round".

-Hyp.

Except you have to be in one square or another in 3e, you can't be "between squares"

It can't push you out of your square, but it can force you to move within your square to avoid damage. (i.e. make a reflex save).

Besides, you can have the Flaming Sphere "jump" up to 30 feet when moving it towards someone. If I jump it so that it comes down from directly above them, are you saying it will "hover" over their heads, rather than landing in their square?

 

[Hypersmurf]

It can't push you out of your square, but it can force you to move within your square to avoid damage. (i.e. make a reflex save).

It can't "force" you to do anything. If you fail your Reflex save (or don't attempt one), you take damage, but you obviously didn't get out of the way.

Besides, you can have the Flaming Sphere "jump" up to 30 feet when moving it towards someone. If I jump it so that it comes down from directly above them, are you saying it will "hover" over their heads, rather than landing in their square?

Of course not. It will land on them if they fail their save, and then - since it can't push aside an unwilling creature, and it can't fly - it has to come down somewhere. It can't end up in the middle of the square, so it can only "occupy" the part of the square it ends up in.

If 3E physics say that you can't be "between" squares, then those same physics have to accept that a 6' diameter ball of flame can occupy the same square as a Medium creature, without burning him except when the conditions of the spell are satisfied.

If you prefer realism in your game, then the rule that should be bent is the one about being between squares.

Isn't "I move three squares forward and one square diagonal" more CRPGish than the rule under dispute?

How do you account for the fact that a wizard stuck in the same space as a 6 foot ball of flame doesn't need to make Continuous Damage Concentration checks to cast?

How do you account for the fact that a successful Reflex save does not, in fact, move the creature into the next square? How did he avoid damage while remaining in the same 5' space as a 6' sphere?

Since you agree that it can't force you out of your square - only to move within your square to avoid damage with a successful Reflex Save - then obviously, there is somewhere within your square where you don't take damage. 'cos you end up standing there with a successful save. If you just stay in that part of your square next round, and the Sphere is not moved, shouldn't it still be "safe"?

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

If 3E physics say that you can't be "between" squares, then those same physics have to accept that a 6' diameter ball of flame can occupy the same square as a Medium creature, without burning him except when the conditions of the spell are satisfied.

-Hyp.

I don't have to accept that it will occupy the same square without burning him.

I can accept that it will occupy the same square with him and he has to make a Reflex save every round, unless he takes a 5' step.

It's pretty simple, and seems entirely reasonable and within the intent of the spell to me.

That's pretty much all I have to say on it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's pretty simple, and seems entirely reasonable and within the intent of the spell to me.

Whereas to me, the intent of the spell seems to be that the caster can deal damage over multiple rounds... but only if he's willing to spend an MEA to do it each round.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Whereas to me, the intent of the spell seems to be that the caster can deal damage over multiple rounds... but only if he's willing to spend an MEA to do it each round.

-Hyp.

Good for you. You stick with that.

Now explain your Blade Barrier ruling in a way that makes sense.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now explain your Blade Barrier ruling in a way that makes sense.

If you like.

The barrier reacts to intrusion. If someone enters or passes through, he gets attacked by the spinning blades.

Someone who remains within is no longer "setting off sensors", and the blades ignore him.

No, the text of the spell says nothing about magical sensors. What it does say is the conditions under which someone takes damage. Rules dictate flavour - in this case, the rule that the spell deals damage when people enter or pass through can, perhaps, be explained with magical intrusion sensors.

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of "Blade Barrier" is - oddly enough - to be a barrier, not a multi-round area damage spell.

It's a fancy barbed-wire fence. If you attempt to get to the other side, you get hurt. If someone is trapped within the barrier - Wall of Force combo, Solid Fog combo, Entangle combo, Reverse Gravity combo, whatever - they're not attempting to get to the other side of the barrier. Its purpose is not to chop them up just for being there - its purpose is to hurt people who try to pass the barrier.

If the spell were called "Storm of Blades", or something similar, I might agree as to its purpose. But I believe that the wording of the spell agrees with the purpose of a barrier.

-Hyp.