D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

[clearstream]

For someone that usually does excellent numerical comparisons, this is pretty shoddy. You've totally ignored that a single critical hit on the bladesinger is instant death for the bladesinger, so, after the second of these combats, the bladesinger is dead, not dying, dead.

Second, you completely ignored the crux of my argument, which is that the GWM fighter is killing his foes more quickly and reducing the number of incoming attacks.

This is where I am coming to repudiate most poster's abstractions. In the majority of play at the table, these characters are not fighting alone. A single CR 4 foe is taking hits from 3-4 allies: I doubt it lasts 5 rounds even if the BS simply stands there and Dodges. It's true there is a 50% chance of one of those 10 attacks being a critical. The damage taken varies widely as it multiplies only the dice, not flat adds. A critical by a Chuul probably won't kill the BS. One by a Black Ooze will.

What your objection overlooks is that the GWM fighter is more likely to die by far. They die if there is a critical hit, and if there are no critical hits.

But, make them 5th level, and the math changes a lot.

That's true, the BS gains 3rd level spells: e.g. Fly and Fireball.

 

[Ovinomancer]

This is where I am coming to repudiate most poster's abstractions. In the majority of play at the table, these characters are not fighting alone. A single CR 4 foe is taking hits from 3-4 allies: I doubt it lasts 5 rounds even if the BS simply stands there and Dodges. It's true there is a 50% chance of one of those 10 attacks being a critical. The damage taken varies widely as it multiplies only the dice, not flat adds. A critical by a Chuul probably won't kill the BS. One by a Black Ooze will.

It was your scenario, sir. Please do not offload blame into me for following the format you set up.

What your objection overlooks is that the GWM fighter is more likely to die by far. They die if there is a critical hit, and if there are no critical hits.

No, I specifically disagree with this. At level 4, the Bladesinger is dead dead to a single crit from a monster dealing 11 damage on average. 100% hp in a single blow dead. The fighter, if archetype is included, had quite a few more ways to extend life that your analysis ignores. Shield spell is available to the EK, maneuvers that disadvantage the enemy for battlemasters. The champion is, indeed, screwed.

And I mistakenly advantaged the bladesinger damage output by 4.5/round above, so her effectiveness while risking instant death is even worse.

A bladesinger can tank, to a point, but is very vulnerable to bad luck in ways the fighter is not. And, while tanking, has very poor damage output. As you note below, he more effective acting as a wizard, which already overshadows fighters, than stepping into the fighters baliwick, where even with her high AC, the bladesinger is mediocre.

That's true, the BS gains 3rd level spells: e.g. Fly and Fireball.

Yup, which makes her as effective as an other tradition wizard if she chooses to stay away from melee. My argument isn't that wizards dying overshadow fighters, it's that the bladesinger isn't any worse about jut.

 

[clearstream]

It was your scenario, sir. Please do not offload blame into me for following the format you set up.

Okay, blaming myself I said "they're in combat for 5 rounds - they're tanking while their allies deliver lethal".

No, I specifically disagree with this. At level 4, the Bladesinger is dead dead to a single crit from a monster dealing 11 damage on average. 100% hp in a single blow dead. The fighter, if archetype is included, had quite a few more ways to extend life that your analysis ignores. Shield spell is available to the EK, maneuvers that disadvantage the enemy for battlemasters. The champion is, indeed, screwed.

We (hopefully) agree on that last: however much critical hits are a danger for BS, Champion is even more screwed. Battlemaster has more options, such as Menace... but we'll come to that.

A bladesinger can tank, to a point, but is very vulnerable to bad luck in ways the fighter is not. And, while tanking, has very poor damage output. As you note below, he more effective acting as a wizard, which already overshadows fighters, than stepping into the fighters baliwick, where even with her high AC, the bladesinger is mediocre.

For me, the footprints in the butter lead clearly to "What the heck, how is a Wizard tanking in the first place!?"

Yup, which makes her as effective as an other tradition wizard if she chooses to stay away from melee. My argument isn't that wizards dying overshadow fighters, it's that the bladesinger isn't any worse about jut.

So here I believe we agree on the premise but disagree on conclusions. For me, the fact that Wizard hugely overshadows Fighters is a reason to not give Wizards any more toys! Especially, not toys that step on fighter toes (Battlemaster or not, being able to cast Fly and Fireball etc beats it.) And most especially do I not want to see an AC 23 (28 with Shield) Wizard flying about, with advantage on Acrobatics and +Int to their Concentration saves, bopping foes with GFB or BB, and up and up and away again. Did I mention that they can land, use their freebie extra 10' walking, then go back to flying?

Their only downside is possessing a strong odour of fromage!

(From, Mage! Cheese... you see what I did there?)

 

[Tony Vargas]

Okay, blaming myself I said "they're in combat for 5 rounds - they're tanking while their allies deliver lethal".

You did, you said that. And it's a tad hilarious a wizard can do that for even one round. I mean, how well is the 4th level fighter going to do at turning invisible? But, you don't even need a bladesinger to do that, there was already a notorious Mountain Dwarf Abjurer build that could tank.

Their only downside is possessing a strong odour of fromage!

(From, Mage! Cheese... you see what I did there?)

I suspect elves smell like a forest in springtime after a light rain.

 

[jaelis]

I suspect elves smell like a forest in springtime after a light rain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrichor

 

[Ovinomancer]

Okay, blaming myself I said "they're in combat for 5 rounds - they're tanking while their allies deliver lethal".

My bad, you did say that, but then that analysis is silly -- the odds the tank would need to do so against that kind of creature is very small, especially given a single level has the fighter killing the creatures solo without dying while the bladesinger always dies.

So, then, if we look at more realistic scenarios of only needed to tank the creature for two rounds or so, the fighter always survives barring 3 or more crits while the bladesinger dies outright (not dying, straight to dead, do not collect 3 death saves) from a single crit. This puts the odds of the bladesinger dying in 2 rounds at about 19% (4 attacks at 5% cumulative chance of crit), while the fighter chance of death is equal to getting at least 2 crits in 4 attacks or 10%. The bladesinger has about twice the chance of death of the fighter in this scenario.

We (hopefully) agree on that last: however much critical hits are a danger for BS, Champion is even more screwed. Battlemaster has more options, such as Menace... but we'll come to that.

No, because a crit kills the bladesinger outright whereas the Champion has a decent likelihood of surviving the encounter with his party. If you want to bring in party play, you need to consider it all around -- the Champion tank has a far higher chance of surviving multiple combats as the tank because he's not susceptible to one-shot death.

For me, the footprints in the butter lead clearly to "What the heck, how is a Wizard tanking in the first place!?"

With an extremely high level of risk of outright death. Seems a fair trade.

So here I believe we agree on the premise but disagree on conclusions. For me, the fact that Wizard hugely overshadows Fighters is a reason to not give Wizards any more toys! Especially, not toys that step on fighter toes (Battlemaster or not, being able to cast Fly and Fireball etc beats it.) And most especially do I not want to see an AC 23 (28 with Shield) Wizard flying about, with advantage on Acrobatics and +Int to their Concentration saves, bopping foes with GFB or BB, and up and up and away again. Did I mention that they can land, use their freebie extra 10' walking, then go back to flying?

Their only downside is possessing a strong odour of fromage!

(From, Mage! Cheese... you see what I did there?)

No, because, again, the bladesinger is either being a wizard, which does wizardly overshadowing, or being a risky tank, but not both at the same time. The opportunity cost for not being a wizard while you're a mediocre damage, very risky tank is enough that the bladesinger doesn't effectively become an uber wizard in the game. A similar analysis of the Mystic Theurge from 3.x had similar screaming of overpowered, but it turns out the choice to be a cleric or a wizard round to round wasn't overpowered, in fact it was a tad underpowered but very flexible. The bladesinger is similar -- the first blush is a reaction similar to yours but that actual play is fraught with choosing to be a wizard and blasting or jumping into melee and being rather mediocre about it. The trade off means that it's not either at a high degree of effectiveness.

The high AC possible from a high rolled stats for a tier 1 bladesinger is quickly eroded in usefulness as you level into tiers II and III. By tier III, that high possible AC isn't much of a factor given the very low hp pool of wizards. Sure, it looks awesome in tier I, but a lucky crit will outright kill a bladesinger. Going into melee with a 5% chance per attack of outright death when fully fresh isn't overpowered in any way -- it's high risk high reward.

 

[James Gasik]

Sure a lucky crit can murder the Bladesinger. But that's still not the most likely result of a Bladesinger wading into melee on occasion with ridiculous AC. It's certainly less likely than a Fighter being wthbbqpwned by a spell cast upon him that he can't do a darned thing about. Let's not forget the Bladesinger is a Wizard, and has access to spells that, combined with his high AC and concentration checks can make him a much better "tank" than the Fighter ever could be. Temporary hit points, resistance to damage, retributive damage- all of this is something spells can grant the Wizard. Not to mention actual stickiness thanks to a well placed "zone of nope". Oh and that spell that took the Fighter entirely out of the fight? The Bladesinger might have been able to counterspell it.

I'm not making a Schrodinger's Wizard argument here- sure the Bladesinger might not have any of these spells, or have them ready to go at any given moment. But they CAN have them, and that's automatically something they have over most Fighters. As for the Eldritch Knight, well, with far fewer spell slots, and a lower ceiling for the power of their spells, they can do some of the same tricks, and they're probably better all day long than the Bladesinger, but when the Bladesinger can shine, she shines far more brightly.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Oh and that spell that took the Fighter entirely out of the fight? The Bladesinger might have been able to counterspell it.

Or might have been the one casting it...

As for the Eldritch Knight, well, with far fewer spell slots, and a lower ceiling for the power of their spells, they can do some of the same tricks, and they're probably better all day long than the Bladesinger...

I think you mean, 'at the end of a long day?' And, yeah, if the Bladesinger faces a third combat between short rests with no Bladesong he's out of luck, while the EK is still wearing armor.

No, because, again, the bladesinger is either being a wizard, which does wizardly overshadowing, or being a risky tank, but not both at the same time.

Did I miss something, or can the Bladesinger not invoke it's crazy AC tricks and still cast away in full-on-Tier-1 wizardly mode?

The opportunity cost for not being a wizard while you're a mediocre damage, very risky tank is enough that the bladesinger doesn't effectively become an uber wizard in the game.

Essentially what you're saying is that actually being a wizard is so much better than playing at being a faux-fighter that the Bladesinger could go ahead and co-opt even more of the fighter's shctick and still be operating at a net loss any time it chooses to play fighter, at all?

 

[Rhenny]

If you play the Bladesinger, you'll feel how vulnerable it is. It is not tanky at all. It feels different than a fighter and a wizard. To be a Bladesinger means sacrificing a number of spells prepared and even spell slots for Mage Armor and some contingency spells like shield, absorb elements, feather fall, etc, because it is more squishy than a fighter.

My Bladesinger will be 4th level pretty soon and I feel as if I need to take Mobility as a feat so that I don't get caught in melee (and also to give me more tactical speed and to make the character seem more like I envision the agile sword/spellslinger).

If a person plays a Bladesinger, but doesn't engage in melee combat, it defeats the purpose of playing the character. That character is better off being a pure wizard. If the character dives into combat too recklessly and relies too heavily on pure melee without tactical consideration, that character is better off being a pure fighter.

I don't know where the Eldritch Knight plays in all of this since I've never played one, but I will say that when I had the choice to play Bladesinger or Eldritch Knight, I liked the Bladesinger concept better. That may be mechanics or just playstyle.

Maybe the problem isn't that the Bladesinger is both wizardly and fighterly, maybe the problem is that the Eldritch Knight isn't as wizardly and fighterly. Again, I can't say until I play the Eldritch Knight.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Sure a lucky crit can murder the Bladesinger. But that's still not the most likely result of a Bladesinger wading into melee on occasion with ridiculous AC.

In the case in question it's 20% of combats result in immediate death, so, yeah, that's a pretty likely result if you're engaging in multiple combats.

It's certainly less likely than a Fighter being wthbbqpwned by a spell cast upon him that he can't do a darned thing about.

Or the bladesinger getting CON saved, or STR saved? Seriously, if we're looking at weaknesses that exist independent of the comparison, you're conceding my point: bladesinger does not make them more better than fighters over normal wizards.

Let's not forget the Bladesinger is a Wizard, and has access to spells that, combined with his high AC and concentration checks can make him a much better "tank" than the Fighter ever could be. Temporary hit points, resistance to damage, retributive damage- all of this is something spells can grant the Wizard. Not to mention actual stickiness thanks to a well placed "zone of nope". Oh and that spell that took the Fighter entirely out of the fight? The Bladesinger might have been able to counterspell it.

Yes, the bladesinger is a wizard, and, when doing wizardy things, overshadows the fighter. That's like, page 1 conceded here. None of this makes the bladesinger step on fighter toes even more than wizards already do.

I'm not making a Schrodinger's Wizard argument here- sure the Bladesinger might not have any of these spells, or have them ready to go at any given moment. But they CAN have them, and that's automatically something they have over most Fighters. As for the Eldritch Knight, well, with far fewer spell slots, and a lower ceiling for the power of their spells, they can do some of the same tricks, and they're probably better all day long than the Bladesinger, but when the Bladesinger can shine, she shines far more brightly.

As a wizard, yes. As a fighter or tank, no. Bladesingers can have better AC in lower tiers, yes, but their shallow hit point pool means that every time one the front rank is risking death 5% per attack. That adds up. The bladesinger just isn't a good replacement for the fighter in the tanking role, but can pinch hit sometimes. This doesn't step any more on the fighter toes -- you still don't want the bladesinger as the party tank.