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D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

Tony Vargas

Legend
Is the idea that wizards generally overshadow fighters being debated?
I don't think it needs to be. The fighter may not be Tier 5 anymore, but it surely hasn't joined the Wizard, Cleric & Druid in Tier 1. ;P
I hasn't thought so. I was under the impression that it was the thinking that Bladesingers do so even more by taking the fighter's shtick that was being contended.
There being an issue with the Bladesinger stepping into the fighter's bailiwick twice between short rests and being 'mediocre' at it, while the EK steps into the wizard's in a 'lousy' way would seem to presuppose that the wizard and fighter are otherwise equal.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I don't think it needs to be. The fighter may not be Tier 5 anymore, but it surely hasn't joined the Wizard, Cleric & Druid in Tier 1. ;P
There being an issue with the Bladesinger stepping into the fighter's bailiwick twice between short rests and being 'mediocre' at it, while the EK steps into the wizard's in a 'lousy' way would seem to presuppose that the wizard and fighter are otherwise equal.

I don't see how you could logical presuppose that, though - the statement that the bladesinger is a mediocre fighter and the EK is a lousy wizard bars nothing on any general comparison of equality otherwise.
 

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Is the idea that wizards generally overshadow fighters being debated?
My personal experience is that any design imbalance between wizards and fighters is swamped by the intrinsic "imbalance" between different players. In other words, a strong player with a fighter will have a lot more impact on the game than a weak (or even average) player with a wizard.

I'd say the same thing about bladesingers. Whatever theoretical advantages the class might possess are, in practice, lost in the noise of different playstyles.

IMO chasing balance past that point is a fool's errand anyway.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
... really? could be pyrite deposits.... Consider that 5e might not have been "Truely great game design" with the intent of creating a technically-'great' game, but, rather, pragmatic game design with the intent of selling a new edition of D&D to a bunch of lunatics who'd just spent years viciously ripping apart the last attempt at creating a technically-decent game.

5e doesn't balance on mechanics or even concepts or across pillars or anything. It's balanced by the DM taking that spotlight, and willfully shining it on the Fighter (or whoever's character hasn't been shining too brightly on it's own, but if we're being honest, it's probably the fighter much of the time) now and then.
Alas, your words are likely true.

Yes, that's an inevitability of commercial game design in general, but in the case of D&D there a countervailing demand for tradition and slow pace of release. So the whole power creep thing we've so far seen with a few sub-classes over several years could be a whole lot worse.
Countervail ftw. Be interesting to see what Xanathar's brings. I'm up for expanding the game for my group with whatever well-considered, balanced content WotC develops.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I don't see how you could logical presuppose that, though - the statement that the bladesinger is a mediocre fighter and the EK is a lousy wizard bars nothing on any general comparison of equality otherwise.
If the bladesinger is meant to be balanced with other traditions and the EK with other archetypes, then, if we presuppose that the wizard is superior to the fighter, it would make sense for the bladesinger to be able to appropriate quite a lot of fighter-ness without overshadowing the other traditions, while if the EK appropriated much wizard-ness it would quickly stand out as superior to the other archetypes.
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
My personal experience is that any design imbalance between wizards and fighters is swamped by the intrinsic "imbalance" between different players. In other words, a strong player with a fighter will have a lot more impact on the game than a weak (or even average) player with a wizard.

I'd say the same thing about bladesingers. Whatever theoretical advantages the class might possess are, in practice, lost in the noise of different playstyles.

IMO chasing balance past that point is a fool's errand anyway.

I really like this, and I'll go one step further...

I'm finding that in a lot of the sessions I run and play in, players who traditionally like playing fighters tend to see the spellcasters as more powerful. On the other hand, players that traditionally like playing spellcasters are seeing melee characters as more powerful. I think there is a natural bias against the other. A lot of it has nothing to do with what's actually happening in the game, and more due to skewed perception.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
If the bladesinger is meant to be balanced with other traditions and the EK with other archetypes, then, if we presuppose that the wizard is superior to the fighter, it would make sense for the bladesinger to be able to appropriate quite a lot of fighter-ness without overshadowing the other traditions, while if the EK appropriated much wizard-ness it would quickly stand out as superior to the other archetypes.
That's such a perverse line of argument, it made me smile :)
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
If the bladesinger is meant to be balanced with other traditions and the EK with other archetypes, then, if we presuppose that the wizard is superior to the fighter, it would make sense for the bladesinger to be able to appropriate quite a lot of fighter-ness without overshadowing the other traditions, while if the EK appropriated much wizard-ness it would quickly stand out as superior to the other archetypes.

So, we've slid from 'fighter and wizard are otherwise equal' to 'traditions are equal and archetypes are equal'. Not a problem, just want to make sure we're on the same set of goalposts.

That agreed, your argument still doesn't logically follow, largely because of the reasons for the overshadowing. Wizards overshadow fighters because wizards contribute strongly to all pillars of the game while fighters only contribute strongly to the combat pillar of the game. When considering what the Bladesinger offers compared to other traditions, it doesn't increase ability in the social or exploration pillars, and, arguably, decreases effectiveness in those pillars if it's core concept is applied (ie, fighting in melee) by siphoning resources to bolster the melee strength (spells to enhance survivability and effectiveness in melee). For this it gains some moderate effectiveness in melee, an area other wizards are very weak in, but does so at increased risk. Since wizards can be just as effective in combat without engaging in melee, the Bladesinger really only offers a novelty exchange to allow a wizard to be in melee, but doesn't increase effectiveness at all.

Compare this to the EK. The EK gains 1/3 progression wizard casting, which at first blush would seem to enhance the fighter's ability in other pillars and make it a stronger subclass. But it doesn't do this at all. The spell selection is tightly limited to abjuration and invocation, both of which are combat pillar spells. The few the EK gets outside of those two schools aren't significant in expanding their effectiveness outside of the combat pillar. And, for those spells, they don't significantly enhance combat pillar effectiveness over the other archetypes.

The EK getting wizard spells doesn't mean the EK is able to assume the abilities the abilities of the wizard class -- like the other fighter archetypes, the abilities provided by the EK archetype supplement it's contribution to the combat pillar in a roughly equal way. The Bladesinger tradition abilities, conversely, offer a choice - be a mediocre fighter with good defense or be a wizard - and that choice isn't multiplicative, it's either or. This is why the Bladesinger isn't an overpowered tradition - it can't do both at the same time, and the trade off, while versatile, means it's not as effective at either.

So, the wizard can overshadow the fighter because it contributes strongly to all pillars while the fighter does combat only. The Bladesinger just offers the option to contribute to the combat pillar as a wizard or a mediocre fighter, but not both and not in a multiplicative or even additive way. The EK archetype doesn't let a fighter become a wizard, but instead narrowly focuses, like the other archetypes, on enhancements to combat pillar contribution. The Bladesinger overshadows fighters (including the EK) because it's still a wizard, not because it can sometimes be a mediocre fighter. It doesn't overshadow the other traditions because it doesn't offer any increase in power, just a bit of role versatility. The EK doesn't overshadow other archetypes because it doesn't gain abilities in other pillars and the abilities it gets in the combat pillar are on par in effectiveness as the other archetypes. The reading that since the EK casts spells as a wizard that it becomes better than other archetypes misses the fact that it's not casting that makes wizards overshadow fighters, it's what and how many things the wizard can cast.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
So, we've slid from 'fighter and wizard are otherwise equal' to 'traditions are equal and archetypes are equal'. Not a problem, just want to make sure we're on the same set of goalposts.
I'm not trying to set a goal, so much as trying to understand the set of assumptions under which the OP's assessment makes sense vs the set of assumptions under which the Bladesinger could be deemed reasonable.

I think the key difference is in respective assumptions about how the wizard & fighter stack up.

That agreed, your argument still doesn't logically follow, largely because of the reasons for the overshadowing...
It's not my argument, I'm just trying to understand two of the positions on this thread. And, while you say it doesn't logically follow, you go on to support it quite comprehensively, illustrating how the Bladesinger can appropriate a lot of the fighter's trademark melee effectiveness without being imbalanced relative to other traditions (indeed, if it devotes slot resources to melee it risks being overshadowed by other traditions?), while the EK's wizardliness is tightly circumscribed to prevent it from 'overshadowing' the other archetypes.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I'm not trying to set a goal, so much as trying to understand the set of assumptions under which the OP's assessment makes sense vs the set of assumptions under which the Bladesinger could be deemed reasonable.

I think the key difference is in respective assumptions about how the wizard & fighter stack up.

I disagree that's the correct assumption. Both [MENTION=71699]vonklaude[/MENTION] and I agree that wizards overshadow fighters as a general point of principle. We also disagree that the Bladesinger is more so than other wizard traditions. Vonklaude is looking at it from a point of view that assumes all of the Bladesinger abilities are at least additive, whereas I see those abilities as not additive but rather either or. The Bladesinger is either acting as a wizard (overshadows fighters by general principles) or is acting as a defensive, moderate damage output fighter (which doesn't overshadow fighters). Vonklaude is looking at both states as being simultaneous while I see them being exclusive. Much like the Mystic Theurge, you can only be one or the other at any given moment.

So, we both think the wizard overshadows the fighter (I don't know his reasoning, but mine is effectiveness across all pillars) yet we disagree that the bladesinger is anything especially noteworthy. Clearly the respective assumptions on wizard/fighter stack ups isn't the difference. The difference is exactly what I've now said over three responses.
 

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