Blaming the System for Player/GM actions

[Zhaleskra]

Min/maxing is always a fault of the system and not the players.

Setting up a system that rewards certain forms of behaviour and then complaining when they occur is the design equivalent of being passive-aggressive.

I'm sorry you feel that way, and I wish to remind you that the system cannot force the players or the GM to do anything. What it can do is encourage a style of play.

 

[Lanefan]

It comes down to a decision by each player and DM to be true to the spirit of the game as well as (or in some cases, instead of) the rules of the game. As a DM, if something in the system is broken, fix it or don't use it. As a player, try to remember it's not supposed to be a competition between you and the other players; the DM should provide all the opposition you'll need and then some, and when it *does* come down to player-vs.-player it's just more fun if you're evenly matched to begin with, isn't it?

Lanefan

 

[Crothian]

Min/maxing is always a fault of the system and not the players.

Actually, the system isn't doing the min maxing. Just because the system allows for it, doesn't mean that it should be done. Having systems that can't be min maxed would really restrict the players options. Players min max, systems don't.

 

[buzz]

Is it fair to blame a game system for player and GM decisions, such as the ever infamous min/maxing?

Personally, I feel it is part of the GM's job to prevent system abuses.

Your having linked "min/maxing" to "abuses" makes me hesitant to answer your question.

In general, "yes and no". "System Does Matter," but there's no game so coherent that it totally eliminates the effect of us oft-illogical humans.

 

[Ravellion]

Actually, the system isn't doing the min maxing. Just because the system allows for it, doesn't mean that it should be done. Having systems that can't be min maxed would really restrict the players options. Players min max, systems don't.

Pre revision d20 Star Wars Jedi?

Rav

 

[Crothian]

Pre revision d20 Star Wars Jedi?

In what way? I don't have that version any more so I can't look it up.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Your having linked "min/maxing" to "abuses" makes me hesitant to answer your question.

I can see how you could make that connection, and what I intended was to do was to use "min/maxing" as an example of an infamous topic on this board.

One of the RPGs I run, has an example of how a player maximized a character's ineptness to the point where the character was so clumsy he was unplayable. I always laugh when I remember that story.

 

[gizmo33]

The DnD rules expect the players to min-max. That's why you're allowed to wear armor as a wizard, but the armor causes spell-failure. Otherwise why bother with spell failure? Why not just expect DMs to lay a guilt trip on players if their wizards use armor?

IMO it's rude to act like players ought to know what rules they're supposed to use and which ones they aren't (or which combinations). If the DM thinks that a rule is inappropriate for the campaign, it should be removed/changed.

 

[buzz]

IMO it's rude to act like players ought to know what rules they're supposed to use and which ones they aren't (or which combinations). If the DM thinks that a rule is inappropriate for the campaign, it should be removed/changed.

Spot-on, sir.

 

[Zhaleskra]

IMO it's rude to act like players ought to know what rules they're supposed to use and which ones they aren't (or which combinations). If the DM thinks that a rule is inappropriate for the campaign, it should be removed/changed.

Yet another good reason for defining the adventure and/or campaign parameters before the game starts. Which brings me back to my example of wanting to use a "shiny new book". The DM should have included in his description "only <book name(s)> allowed".