TSR Blast from the Past- How to Go Full Monty Haul in AD&D
- Thread starter Snarf Zagyg
- Start date
Dang. I think I have an illness. I've spent the last day thinking to myself, "Self, do you know what the world needs now? A long essay detailing how Gygax's fascination with appearing erudite caused him to overuse (and misuse) signals like q.v."
Apparently, I can't just fill the void in my soul by killing bards.
Thinking.... maybe I just need more dead bards to stuff it? YES!
Voadam
Legend
i.e., e.g., c.f., etc.
When he said q.v. what did he actually mean? Did he mean it that way in the actual specific instance? Unreliable usage is kind of unreliable.
The girdle use of q.v. is not quite the same as the use of q.v. in erase.
In erase it says it can be used against glyphs of warding q.v. and then specifies in glyphs of warding how the two interact. It does not say erase can work on a broad group like magical symbols and sigils and runes and glyphs q.v. and then only have the explanation in glyphs of warding.
The girdle could have clearly referenced the one and only Hammer of Thunderbolts (q.v.) and have it clearly be a reference for how this works with just the HoT but instead references "in combination with gauntlets of ogre power and magic war hammers (q.v.)"
The Hammer of Thunderbolts specifies how the girdle and gauntlets work with the Hammer of Thunderbolts. Given the magic war hammers q.v. does this mean he meant it only works with the HoT or that you look at how it is spelled out how it works in the HoT for how it works with all magic war hammers (and then does this extend to the gauntlets' all "hurled weapons" too?).
Magic war hammers plural could mean plural Hammers of Thunderbolts and that you look for the one unique HoT only situation rule in the magic war hammers section or it could mean all war hammers.
Gygax provides room for argument here.
I actually never stopped to consider what stuff like qv, cf, ibid, and the like ever meant but you’ve definitely piqued my interest now.
No, he doesn't. I get what you're trying to say, but the usage is consistent. Not to repeat what I said before, but you can look at his usage of q.v. in the PHB and the DMG (trust me, there's a LOT of usages) and see that he is using it, if not always consistent with best academic practice, then at least consistent with proper usage- q.v. means that it is an internal cross-reference to another part of the text that you are omitting in order to avoid footnotes or repeating yourself.
It means that you have to look elsewhere to find the specific rule or table or explanation. So here, you cannot say "this refers to magic war hammers" so it could refer to any magic war hammers. No, it says ... go look for the relevant text that I am not going to repeat here that you should know that is about magic war hammers, located at the Hammer of Thunderbolts.
I gave you the glyph of warding example. That doesn't mean to look anywhere that you find him refer to a glypg of warding- it means that specific entry that specifically talks about the erase spell. Here's some other uses....
That is, they use the normal tables for poison types (q.v.). This refers to the Poison Types Table
The afflicted character will generally behave as one in o maniacal state, with paranoid (q.v.), hallucinatory (q.v.), or homicidal (q.v.) tendencies. This refers to the rules entries for each under Insanity.
The ESP potion bestows an ability which is the same as the level magic-user spell of the same name (q.v.) ... This refers to the spell in the PHB.
Reading of such scrolls is possible even to magic-users who are otherwise unable to employ such a spell for any reason whatsoever, be it inability to learn or above level of use - although in the latter case there is a chance of spell failure (q.v.). In other words, this is a reminder that this isn't just natural language (you might have a chance of spell failure), but you need to look at the specific rule for Magic Spell Failure
Now here's an interesting example of the true interplay of q.v.
A lot of people who played AD&D had a mistaken belief that, for example, "Rings of Wishes" gave ... more powerful wishes than "just a spell." But that's not true. Look at the wording of the Ring-
Ring of Multiple Wishes: This ring contains from 2-8 (2d4) wish spells (q.v.). As with any wish, you must be very judicious in how you handle the request. If players are greedy and grasping, be sure to ”crock” them. Interpret their wording exactly, twist the wording, or simply rule the request is beyond the power of the magic. In any case, the wish is used up, whether or not (or how) the wish was granted. Note that no wish is able to cancel the decrees of god-like beings, unless it comes from another such creature.
So you might notice that the description here is more .... perjorative .... than just what is in the PHB. What's going on? Well, the Ring literally just contains 2-8 wish spells- and you can cross-reference the PHB to see that wish spell. But the DMG also contains all sorts of text that limits the power of wishes. Not just the additional admonition to kinda sorta screw players here. But also weirdly specific limitations on the power of a wish BEYOND screwing players. See, e.g., the Special Note on page 136 about magical librams, manuals, tomes, and books. You can't use a wish to find out what they do- one wish gives you the general contents, but it takes two (TWO) wishes to find out what it does specifically.
But other than Gygax's love of screwing players over, the use of q.v. indicates that a wish is a wish, as shown in the text of the PHB.
Anyway, I hope the point is made. By using "q.v." Gygax is referring you to another rule. As I like to say, anyone can debate anything, but debating this particular rule issue in AD&D (IMO, backed by a lot of evidence) is just wrong. Only the hammer of thunderbolts works, and that's because (1) it's the only hammer that has the specific rule, and (2) the only other item that says you can stack bonuses says you need to look to the magical war hammers rules, and when you do, you find the specific rule in the hammer of thunderbolts. To go Gygaxian ... Q.E.D.
By the way, a bonus fun fact about Gygax. Here's the sentence:
The strength gained is not cumulative with normal or magical strength bonuses except with regard to use in combination with gauntlets of ogre power and magic war hammers (q.v.).
So let's say you are confused by this. You look at this, and say to yourself ... "Self, what is the reference to? Where is he telling me to look for the rules? How do I know that he isn't telling me to look for the rules in both the sections regarding the gauntlets AND magic war hammers?"
So there's two answers.
The first is that Gygax always follows the item that is being cross-referenced directly with a q.v. signal. Even if it happens in the middle of a sentence. Here's two examples (one from above)-
Lunacy: This violent and often homicidal state occurs whenever the moon is full, or nearly full. The afflicted character will generally behave as one in o maniacal state, with paranoid (q.v.), hallucinatory (q.v.), or homicidal (q.v.) tendencies.
This refers you to the rules entries for "paranoid," "hallucinatory," and "homicidal."
The whirlwind is identical to that caused by a djinni (q.v.). Plane travel is similar to the psionic ability of probability travel (q.v.), but travel is possible only to the various planes.
First, you are referred to the "djinni" entry (it's right after that word) in the Monster Manual to understand the whirlwind. Next, you are referred to "probability travel" in the PHB psionics entry.
The second is that Gygax specifically uses the correct plural form (qq.v, or quae vide) when signalling a cross reference to a series.
The wizard-locked door or object can be opened only by breaking, a dispel magic, a knock spell (qq.v.), or by a magic-user 4 or more levels higher than the one casting the spell.
This refers the reader to three (3) rules. Two are spells (dispel magic and knock). It also refers to breaking a wizard lock (which is located in Strength Table II in the PHB).
Ugh. Okay, now I've really written too much on this.
The strength gained is not cumulative with normal or magical strength bonuses except with regard to use in combination with gauntlets of ogre power and magic war hammers (q.v.).
So let's say you are confused by this. You look at this, and say to yourself ... "Self, what is the reference to? Where is he telling me to look for the rules? How do I know that he isn't telling me to look for the rules in both the sections regarding the gauntlets AND magic war hammers?"
So there's two answers.
The first is that Gygax always follows the item that is being cross-referenced directly with a q.v. signal. Even if it happens in the middle of a sentence. Here's two examples (one from above)-
Lunacy: This violent and often homicidal state occurs whenever the moon is full, or nearly full. The afflicted character will generally behave as one in o maniacal state, with paranoid (q.v.), hallucinatory (q.v.), or homicidal (q.v.) tendencies.
This refers you to the rules entries for "paranoid," "hallucinatory," and "homicidal."
The whirlwind is identical to that caused by a djinni (q.v.). Plane travel is similar to the psionic ability of probability travel (q.v.), but travel is possible only to the various planes.
First, you are referred to the "djinni" entry (it's right after that word) in the Monster Manual to understand the whirlwind. Next, you are referred to "probability travel" in the PHB psionics entry.
The second is that Gygax specifically uses the correct plural form (qq.v, or quae vide) when signalling a cross reference to a series.
The wizard-locked door or object can be opened only by breaking, a dispel magic, a knock spell (qq.v.), or by a magic-user 4 or more levels higher than the one casting the spell.
This refers the reader to three (3) rules. Two are spells (dispel magic and knock). It also refers to breaking a wizard lock (which is located in Strength Table II in the PHB).
Ugh. Okay, now I've really written too much on this.
GuyBoy
Hero
Ibid was Undying.
Voadam
Legend
What he said.
Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
Just a random aside. After reading this thread, I looked at the magical weapons table and I discovered that in the DMG there's no chance to roll a dagger +1, which must have been one of the more common magical weapons in modules!
Since I bought Unearthed Arcana before the Dungeon Master Guide (the DMG was unavailable for a while at the stores in Rome where I bought stuff), I've always used the extended listings in UA.
Since I bought Unearthed Arcana before the Dungeon Master Guide (the DMG was unavailable for a while at the stores in Rome where I bought stuff), I've always used the extended listings in UA.
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