Blatant abuse of the five foot step?

[Shard O'Glase]

It is blatantly against the rules (using a 5ft-step in this manner) and that's all we're debating. If the rules simply didn't cover it, that's how we'd respond. I don't think anyone's disallowing the action in this thread, just disallowing it as a 5ft-step per the RAW. Many people houserule that 5ft-steps off an edge are Okay. But, it's not the rule.

What is more of a gray area is the illusory edge scenario.

Really its blatantly against the rules. Mind pointing out the can't 5' step off a cliff portion of the rules and not the well because you should't be able to move for free I'm saying its too much for 1 turn crap everyone has been posting. Or the yeah if he stepped into a pit sure he'd fall or maybe onto an illusionary platform, but do it intentionally you can't do that. Why well because the 5' step doesn't specifically mention stepping off into air. And we all know if the rules dont specifically mention being able to do it you can't. Every crime in the world went unsolved until Rick Baker intented the investigate feat. And lets not forget how hard it was to research things or track someone down in town pre eberon. Thankfulky now that rules were written those things can be done in the world now.

The rules cant mention every use of every action. If someone wants to try somethig not specifically listed you look at it see if it could work and make a ruling.

5' step whats the action, well while still making a full action of some kind like a full attack you can make a small movement. Is the person making a small movement yeppers, where off a ledge, what happens when you step off a ledge, you fall. That's the rules in action.

 

[anon]

Let me ask another question for the can't-5-foot-steppers. What if the character in question had Fly cast on them? Could they then step 5 feet into air? Would that still be "difficult terrain"?

Also, how do you justify there to be "enough time" in the round for a character to full-attack, then 5-foot step on to a trap, and fall, but not enough time to do the same thing if it's an intentional fall? Either there's time or not. No?

Finally, for those who would charge movement for falling, do character who fall a long distance just end up owing you move actions when they finally hit the ground? For example does a character who falls 240 feet off a cliff in round 1 owe you 6 move actions after the first round? (first 60 feet takes up their first 2 moves, next 180 feet are "owed").

In my opinion falling is a free action/non-action, which does not count against a player's actions (though very often against their hit points).

 

[mrtauntaun]

What if the character in question had Fly cast on them? Could they then step 5 feet into air? Would that still be "difficult terrain"?

No, in the example stated, I said excluding magic. Magical movement changes the scenario.

Also, how do you justify there to be "enough time" in the round for a character to full-attack, then 5-foot step on to a trap, and fall, but not enough time to do the same thing if it's an intentional fall? Either there's time or not. No?

The results of the trap would have to go off next round, otherwise (as another post stated above) the turn goes on for 8 or 10 seconds in stead of 6. It would have to effect both equally.

Is the person making a small movement yeppers, where off a ledge, what happens when you step off a ledge, you fall.

That is correct, you fall. If it is not difficult terrain (which I still maintain it is, IMO) then you would fall, just not all in the same turn, as it takes longer than 6 seconds to do it.

Imagine if an NPC tried doing the same thing to a group of players, that would be disastrous.

 

[Silveras]

The issue here is not about the letter of the rules forbidding such an action; I do not see anyone saying that at all. What I *do* see is people protesting that the action does not pass the "sniff test"; that it is a blatant attempt to exploit an area where the rules are weak.

1: The player is using his knowledge of game mechanics to decide that his character has enough hit points to easily survive the fall. The *character* does not know that. Without magic like levitate or fly, most *characters* should expect that they are risking being killed or are at least quite likely to break one or more bones.

2: Because the rules frown on incapacitating characters, they present "Damage to Specific Areas" as a variant only (DMG p.27). The player is also capitalizing on this, with respect to the point I just mentioned.

3: The player is exploiting a mistaken interpretation of Falling vs. Jumping:

If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage.

Note that any such movement invoked deliberately is considered a Jump. It seems pretty clear that Falling is involuntary.


The theatricality of the move is unquestioned. It would look really cool, but the player got greedy. Instead of taking one attack and then jumping down (legit, and cool), s/he tried to squeeze in a full attack and a free Jump by calling it Falling.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Mind pointing out the can't 5' step off a cliff portion of the rules and not the well because you should't be able to move for free I'm saying its too much for 1 turn crap everyone has been posting.

It's been pointed out a couple times already in this thread, but I'll do it yet again just for your amusement. You can't take a 5ft-step in a movement mode in which you don't have a listed speed. Since the character's trying to take a 5ft-step into air, he can't because he doesn't have a fly speed. It's that simple.

There's a huge difference between a 5ft-step and movement. In game terms, they are not the same thing at all. I personally don't see this as a big cheese factor myself -- if you want to allow the 5ft-step off an edge that's fine. I don't think it will do any harm to your game. But, strictly speaking you can't 5ft-step off any edge, but you can move off an edge.

NOTE: If you do let him use the 5ft-step, he cannot use a Jump or Tumble check to help with the fall. Since it's not actually movement (not the difference in game terms), he can't use a skill as part of it that specifies "can be used as part of movement."

 

[anon]

What if we place the edge of the cliff in the middle of a square.

Same ruling--can't move into that square? Or must I make a Balance check? May I volutarily fail that Balance check?


As for issues of game abuse, it seems to me that there is a general sentiment of screw the player. In the case of a trap the character falls immediately, can't be helped and takes damage, yet in exactly the same physical situation the character can't fall so that the character can be attacked by the people on the higher level...


If a character can walk on to an imaginary floor and fall immediately how is this different than walking off the edge of a cliff? In both cases the character deliberately walks forward 5 feet (into the air) and falls.

 

[Dryfus]

The quote supports it because of what it doesn't say. It does not say you can walk, it only says you can jump or slip. If you're going by RAW, you have to go by what is written.

And if a character walks 5' forward onto an illusory floor, they would start falling immediately because falling is a free action. They walk 5' because it's a surface, the character at least believes it's a real surface, and is allowable.

Yes, but the RAW also says that the DM has absolute say over any circumsatnce. IE, if the DM says "hey that would be cool, sure I'll allow it" then it can happen, after all the RAW are just guidelines, and as DM you can make any changes to them that you see fit.




As an aside, I don't think the writers actually forsaw something like this, so therfore they didn't write any "rules" for it.

 

[reveal]

Yes, but the RAW also says that the DM has absolute say over any circumsatnce. IE, if the DM says "hey that would be cool, sure I'll allow it" then it can happen, after all the RAW are just guidelines, and as DM you can make any changes to them that you see fit.

Which is what I referred to in my "I'd still allow him to do it because it would be cool" statements.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The results of the trap would have to go off next round, otherwise (as another post stated above) the turn goes on for 8 or 10 seconds in stead of 6. It would have to effect both equally.

Let's say someone takes a standard action, then moves 25 feet. The last square they move into contains a pit trap, a hundred feet deep. They have five feet of movement remaining in their turn. Does the pit trap open? Do they fall? How far?

Let's say they move 30 feet to the pit trap. They have zero movement remaining. Does the pit trap open? Do they fall? How far?

If the pit trap opens, but they don't fall until their next turn, can their ogre buddy move 30 feet to the edge of the pit and grab them on his turn, before they fall? Could he do the same if they'd only moved ten feet before triggering the trap on their own turn?

-Hyp.

 

[Dimwhit]

Really its blatantly against the rules. Mind pointing out the can't 5' step off a cliff portion of the rules and not the well because you should't be able to move for free I'm saying its too much for 1 turn crap everyone has been posting. Or the yeah if he stepped into a pit sure he'd fall or maybe onto an illusionary platform, but do it intentionally you can't do that. Why well because the 5' step doesn't specifically mention stepping off into air. And we all know if the rules dont specifically mention being able to do it you can't. Every crime in the world went unsolved until Rick Baker intented the investigate feat. And lets not forget how hard it was to research things or track someone down in town pre eberon. Thankfulky now that rules were written those things can be done in the world now.

The rules cant mention every use of every action. If someone wants to try somethig not specifically listed you look at it see if it could work and make a ruling.

5' step whats the action, well while still making a full action of some kind like a full attack you can make a small movement. Is the person making a small movement yeppers, where off a ledge, what happens when you step off a ledge, you fall. That's the rules in action.

I know that post was written in English, but for the life of me, I have no idea what you just said.