Blatant abuse of the five foot step?

[Bastoche]

The rules could be read to say that you can do three thinks: jump, slip, or fall.

Also the sentence is only telling you what happens when someone jumps instead of doing X. That in no way means that doing X is the only other possibility.

This is not a valid argument because the creators assume we understand they cannot think of everything. Therefore, everything that is not mentionned is not automatically permitted. They may have just not think of it.

 

[anon]

Falling 20ft will take:

d=gt^2
t=sqrt(d/g)

d(istance)=20
g(ravity)=32

sqrt(20/32)=0.791 secs


I agree with no inflight heroics. Shoot before or after.

 

[Bastoche]

Falling 20ft will take:

d=gt^2
t=sqrt(d/g)

d(istance)=20
g(ravity)=32

sqrt(20/32)=0.791 secs


I agree with no inflight heroics. Shoot before or after.

Friction with air is not negligeable when considering a guy jumping. In which case you rather have F = gt^2 - vAt, where A is the friction coefficient that would depends on surface and mass (in other words, specific for each individual). What would happen is that at some speed v1, the body would cease to accelerate (that why a feather or a sheet of paper doesn't fall at the same speed as a rock, unless you place them in a pressureless case) and then go at constant speed. The question remains wheter or not at 20ft, the limit speed is obtained.

Still, you have found a lower bound, that is the fall takes at least about 1 second. But from my experience, it's more than that.

 

[mrtauntaun]

The crux of my arguement is that it's too much to do and constitutes a move. I base this on the ruling vs unnatural or rough terrain. You can not take a five foot step to go up an incline or rocky/uneven surface. Air is not a natural MOVEABLE surface, not for a human, therefore you can not five foot step it. Below, taken from the SRD, empasis mine:

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement.... and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

I present falling is still movement, as the player is intending to move this distance.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.

As I stated above, I believe air to be difficult terrain, and therefore you can not 5 foot step into it.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

While there is no listed speed for falling, the devs can't think of everything. While a weaker point of support, as I believe the ones I stated are much stronger and to the point, it is still valid.

In response to the posts regarding illusioned pit traps and the like, i find these arguements to be apples and oranges. Falling into a trap is an unintendend consequence of taking a free 5 foot step. You though you were moving onto solid ground, and the rest falls into the slipping-falling category. In this case, the character is intentionally using the five foot step to move into air and, thusly, fall. Based on how it is both written and intended, this is an abuse of the rule, IMO.
Thoughts? Comments?

 

[dcollins]

Bastoche: Information I have from a book on skydiving indicates that a person falls about 500 ft. in the first 6 seconds (and that's not yet at terminal velocity). It's certainly not 3 or 4 or 5 seconds to only fall 20 or 40 ft.

 

[William_2]

Someone standing on the second story of…well, most things (although who knows what this is?), is not all that likely to be twenty feet up. I would have thought more like ten or twelve. Even taking 20 as the height, I think there is still no possibility that the fall will take 3 or more seconds, which I would think is the absolute minimum for even considering one attack – closer to 6 for a full attack. Count to 2 seconds while falling a mere 8 feet? Not in my experience, by a long way (more like under half a second), but experience does of course vary. Physics not so much, though. I think a body falling that short distance would still be accelerating, but even if for some reason it was not it is still hitting the ground very, very soon after beginning to fall. Not to get involved in the calculating side of it, but a gross figure of a body falling a good 20 metres in two seconds is not unreasonable, I think.

With regards to the “five foot step on air” concept, I see the situation as precisely the opposite. The character is not traveling 5 feet across air (which I agree would be most difficult in a non-Roadrunner based campaign…), but traveling a very small distance (less than five feet, possibly less than 2) over ordinary terrain and then falling. Nothing could be easier than sticking a foot straight out into the air, in my view. Cue fall. Falling does not seem to me to count as movement. All-in-all, the falling part seems to me like a solid dire situation kind of compromise. The full attack in .5 seconds of falling doesn’t work for me, though.

 

[mrtauntaun]

The character is not traveling 5 feet across air (which I agree would be most difficult in a non-Roadrunner based campaign…),

LOL!

but traveling a very small distance (less than five feet, possibly less than 2) over ordinary terrain and then falling.

That is splitting hairs, IMO. Most 5 foot steps don't really equate to five feet of actual movement in game. But as five feet is the smallest unit of movement measurement, it is used to address Minor moves.

And furthermore, if the daggers are thrown first (as they eventually were, for it made more sense), I just don't see someone throwing three daggers, steping to their left and falling 20+ feet all in 6 seconds. It's just too much. That brings us back to the points about leaving the character in mid-air for a round, which opens a totally new can of worms, and would ask too much of my suspension of disbelief.

Even if it was directed by John Woo

 

[Dimwhit]

Personally, I don't think you can 'throw' daggers while falling. No floor or mount or anything to leverage the throw with. At the very least, I can't imagine getting any strength on the damage. I'll readily admit, however, that I could be wrong on this. I would also rule that a 10' drop is a MA, but I realize that might not jive with the rules. But then I have my own thoughts on many of the RAW.

 

[Bastoche]

The crux of my arguement is that it's too much to do and constitutes a move. I base this on the ruling vs unnatural or rough terrain. You can not take a five foot step to go up an incline or rocky/uneven surface. Air is not a natural MOVEABLE surface, not for a human, therefore you can not five foot step it. Below, taken from the SRD, empasis mine:



I present falling is still movement, as the player is intending to move this distance.



As I stated above, I believe air to be difficult terrain, and therefore you can not 5 foot step into it.



While there is no listed speed for falling, the devs can't think of everything. While a weaker point of support, as I believe the ones I stated are much stronger and to the point, it is still valid.

In response to the posts regarding illusioned pit traps and the like, i find these arguements to be apples and oranges. Falling into a trap is an unintendend consequence of taking a free 5 foot step. You though you were moving onto solid ground, and the rest falls into the slipping-falling category. In this case, the character is intentionally using the five foot step to move into air and, thusly, fall. Based on how it is both written and intended, this is an abuse of the rule, IMO.
Thoughts? Comments?

I agree with your ruling.

 

[Bastoche]

Someone standing on the second story of…well, most things (although who knows what this is?), is not all that likely to be twenty feet up. I would have thought more like ten or twelve.

You often walk on a 5 or 6 feet high level? Typical modern day INDOOR height is 8 ft. Plus the thickness of the floor/celling, which is typically 1 ft. So that's 18 feet minimum + the basement's height over ground and the roof which should be at least 5 feet thick. 20ft was a VERY low boundary. Middle ages building could be much higher for each level. I mean, watch above your computer and think: 5 feet per level???

EDIT: I just realize I misunderstood the original setting. It's on the roof of a one level building, not the roof of a 2-level building... I'd say one level is about 10 ft + basement above the ground + about 2-3 ft of roof, so let's say about 15 ft, more if the roof is angled.