Blatant abuse of the five foot step?
- Thread starter mrtauntaun
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Dimwhit said:
What, you haven't seen Sin City?
-Hyp.
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Len
Prodigal Member
I disagree. Leverage is not needed to throw something. F = ma, and daggers have very little m compared to the thrower, so the speed and force of the dagger would be only very slightly reduced - not enough to reduce the strength bonus, IMO.Dimwhit said:
A 20-foot fall does seem pretty short to contain a full attack, though.
(Hyp, I was thinking of getting the Sin City DVD this week, and now I'm almost sure of it.
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If he took a five foots step into a pit you would not charge him a move action for the fall - "falling is free".
Many of you have agreed to the above – falling is free.
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Otherwise, following the logic stated, when you fall that 60' per round (I think it is - if not say it is for the purposes of this example)) would that then count as a double move for the character with a 30' move? No - it would not.
Can you reasonably argue with this? If a PC was falling 1,000 feet each round he would be given a move action and a standard action as he fell; does anyone disagree with that?
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Page 77 of the PHB (middle/lower right hand side) details this: See Jumping Down and Action. It indicates that jumping is a move equivalent action (and/or combined with a move action) and Jumping down falls under Jumping - thus it is an actual move equivalent action - and thus you cannot also make a full attack. A 5 foot step is still free (but you can’t move and take the 5 foot step as we all know)
There are no rules regarding “stepping” off a ledge. I don’t see why one can’t do it at all; the logic against that is intrinsic and just because the rules say nothing does not mean it can’t be done. Are characters are heroes; the best of the best of the world; far braver than even the bravest.. If it was stepping into molten lava as a DM you would allow it (even though you would know the player was daft)…why not thin air?
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What I would say, and I think the RAW supports me (IMO), is that if you just step and stop – free action – no other actions subsequent to that can be taken without charging a move action against the character.
“jumping down” really means intentionally jumping off of something - as in “jumping” not just walking off of it. Some of you eluded to the two being the same by default IMO they are indeed different. However falling is a free action but landing still takes a move action – just as if you had made the full jump action in the same round you would get the “jump down” fall and landing as a single move action. But any one of the three individually still costs a move action (I hope that made sense!)
Think about the rules; if you run out of movement in a jump you are “frozen” there until your next turn where you then continue the jump (which costs a move action). Why can that not also apply here? With the only difference being you got a freebie top start the jump by stepping off but in the end it still costs you a move action to complete.
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Thus you cannot both take a 5-foot step and fall in the same round and not make a move action out of it; seeing as by default that means you did indeed “jump down” (see below – sooner or later ya gotta spend that move action). However the next round after that; you fall immediately before any actions are taken.
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A house rule I use (since similar situations came up): You, when falling, after jumping down, may choose to not avoid taking damage (landing using a move action) then you get no chance to stay upright and take max damage. But you can then take a move action and a standard action before or after you hit or a full round action before or after you hit (provided your still alive).
As I said above If you "step off" and fall in the same round ou get hit with a move action and the ruloe just above here applies. Iif you just step off one rond, then on your next turn fall, that fall haoppens first thing in you turn before anything else; you ahve no chance to get an action off before you fall. If you hit the ground that round you take max damage (do the carelessness by which you left the ledge) but can make a save at a -1 penalty per foot of the fall to stay upright.
In this case the "care" or "carelessness" is what is important when leaving the ledge. If you "jump down" you burn a move action , fall in that same round and land on your feet if you "step off" you may not fall that same round, you ma take no further actions, fall first thing on your next turn, take max damage and get a huge penalty to stay upright.
See below for additional info in "stepping off".
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To answer the original question: he cannot step 5', fall and make a full attack in the same round.
He may however:
1. Jump down, fall (making it a move action) and make a single attack
2. Make a single attack, jump down and fall
3. Make a full attack and just step 5' and end his turn in midair
For #3 - However, between the PC's turns of stepping and falling (seeing as he also attacked them), the badguys would see him coming and on their turn, after he took his step into midair, could do bad things.
-I call falling on someone a charge (a free charge for the guy falling - but he can't benefit from it with an attack as a charge unless he chooses to do so at a -10 penalty; but recall this also means he can't use an action to stay upright and per my hose rule takes max damage seeing as a charge is a full round action).
-The enemy could set weapons against that charge on their turn. Meaning the PC takes the falling damage PLUS damage from the set weapons.
-I also say that, given we live in a 3 dimensional world, the PC would generate AoO's for any threatened squares he passes through; be they in midair.
Thoughts?
If he took a five foots step into a pit you would not charge him a move action for the fall - "falling is free".
Many of you have agreed to the above – falling is free.
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Otherwise, following the logic stated, when you fall that 60' per round (I think it is - if not say it is for the purposes of this example)) would that then count as a double move for the character with a 30' move? No - it would not.
Can you reasonably argue with this? If a PC was falling 1,000 feet each round he would be given a move action and a standard action as he fell; does anyone disagree with that?
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Page 77 of the PHB (middle/lower right hand side) details this: See Jumping Down and Action. It indicates that jumping is a move equivalent action (and/or combined with a move action) and Jumping down falls under Jumping - thus it is an actual move equivalent action - and thus you cannot also make a full attack. A 5 foot step is still free (but you can’t move and take the 5 foot step as we all know)
There are no rules regarding “stepping” off a ledge. I don’t see why one can’t do it at all; the logic against that is intrinsic and just because the rules say nothing does not mean it can’t be done. Are characters are heroes; the best of the best of the world; far braver than even the bravest.. If it was stepping into molten lava as a DM you would allow it (even though you would know the player was daft)…why not thin air?
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What I would say, and I think the RAW supports me (IMO), is that if you just step and stop – free action – no other actions subsequent to that can be taken without charging a move action against the character.
“jumping down” really means intentionally jumping off of something - as in “jumping” not just walking off of it. Some of you eluded to the two being the same by default IMO they are indeed different. However falling is a free action but landing still takes a move action – just as if you had made the full jump action in the same round you would get the “jump down” fall and landing as a single move action. But any one of the three individually still costs a move action (I hope that made sense!)
Think about the rules; if you run out of movement in a jump you are “frozen” there until your next turn where you then continue the jump (which costs a move action). Why can that not also apply here? With the only difference being you got a freebie top start the jump by stepping off but in the end it still costs you a move action to complete.
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Thus you cannot both take a 5-foot step and fall in the same round and not make a move action out of it; seeing as by default that means you did indeed “jump down” (see below – sooner or later ya gotta spend that move action). However the next round after that; you fall immediately before any actions are taken.
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A house rule I use (since similar situations came up): You, when falling, after jumping down, may choose to not avoid taking damage (landing using a move action) then you get no chance to stay upright and take max damage. But you can then take a move action and a standard action before or after you hit or a full round action before or after you hit (provided your still alive).
As I said above If you "step off" and fall in the same round ou get hit with a move action and the ruloe just above here applies. Iif you just step off one rond, then on your next turn fall, that fall haoppens first thing in you turn before anything else; you ahve no chance to get an action off before you fall. If you hit the ground that round you take max damage (do the carelessness by which you left the ledge) but can make a save at a -1 penalty per foot of the fall to stay upright.
In this case the "care" or "carelessness" is what is important when leaving the ledge. If you "jump down" you burn a move action , fall in that same round and land on your feet if you "step off" you may not fall that same round, you ma take no further actions, fall first thing on your next turn, take max damage and get a huge penalty to stay upright.
See below for additional info in "stepping off".
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To answer the original question: he cannot step 5', fall and make a full attack in the same round.
He may however:
1. Jump down, fall (making it a move action) and make a single attack
2. Make a single attack, jump down and fall
3. Make a full attack and just step 5' and end his turn in midair
For #3 - However, between the PC's turns of stepping and falling (seeing as he also attacked them), the badguys would see him coming and on their turn, after he took his step into midair, could do bad things.
-I call falling on someone a charge (a free charge for the guy falling - but he can't benefit from it with an attack as a charge unless he chooses to do so at a -10 penalty; but recall this also means he can't use an action to stay upright and per my hose rule takes max damage seeing as a charge is a full round action).
-The enemy could set weapons against that charge on their turn. Meaning the PC takes the falling damage PLUS damage from the set weapons.
-I also say that, given we live in a 3 dimensional world, the PC would generate AoO's for any threatened squares he passes through; be they in midair.
Thoughts?
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I agreee with much of what you said.
The only thing I am not clear on whether the fall should happen at the end of the turn, or at the start of the next turn. If a trap, or illusionary floor, would mandate an immediate (non-action/free action) fall, then I would rule that the fall happens at the end of the turn.
There seems to be some sentiment that the player is getting away with something. I don't understand this. The character will take damage, may provoke one or more attacks of opportunity from falling, will lose a move action to stand up, and may provoke additional attacks of opportunity while trying to stand from prone. Seems like a plenty high cost for what appears to mainly be a dramatic manuever.
The only thing I am not clear on whether the fall should happen at the end of the turn, or at the start of the next turn. If a trap, or illusionary floor, would mandate an immediate (non-action/free action) fall, then I would rule that the fall happens at the end of the turn.
There seems to be some sentiment that the player is getting away with something. I don't understand this. The character will take damage, may provoke one or more attacks of opportunity from falling, will lose a move action to stand up, and may provoke additional attacks of opportunity while trying to stand from prone. Seems like a plenty high cost for what appears to mainly be a dramatic manuever.
mrtauntaun
First Post
SBMC said:
I would definately consider lava harsh terrain, and thusly not permitted with the five foot step, so I would not allow it. If the player wanted to make a regular move into lava, more power too him, and he would indeed be daft
mrtauntaun
First Post
SBMC said:
Correct. But, as stated, this is apples and oranges. This is an unintentional consequence. However, in the stated example, the character is trying to use this ruling to his advantage, intentionally moving further than what the 5 foot step is intended to be. I would like to believe that if the 5 foot step could ever result in something more than a 5 foot movement, it would at least be cursorly addressed somewhere in the rules. Of course, that could be sheet fantasy, knowing WoTC.
EDIT: Also, if a player took a five foot step, with the intention to performing another action afterwards, and fell down a trap, wouldn't that result in the end of the players turn, as he would be prone at the bottom of the pit?
mrtauntaun said:
In my opinion it would depend on what the player had done up until that point in the round. If they still had an unused move action or a standard action then I would allow them to use it, to stand from prone or whatever. And had they only taken a 5ft step I would allow them both a move (stand from prone most likely) and a standard action.
I would not end a turn simply because a player's intended action was interrupted by something unexpected.
edited for typo
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SBMC said:
anon said:
anon said:
Which I think is one of the biggest issues with this discussion.
"Jumping down" involves taking care to aim to land; to attempt to land as safely as possible and the like. Stepping off is a careless act that results in a fall; an uncontrolled fall. The same as if a pit opened up under you except you did it intentionally and thus have to pay a price fo it.
When you jump:
Step 1: You run or just start jumping (inclusive of jumping down)
Step 2: Travel the distance that you wanted to
Step 3: Land
Those three things cost a single move action. Like drawing a weapon without quick draw any individual one should also cost a move action - but together synergize to cost only one move action.
Scenario #1
As the rules state and I noted above; if I run out of movement in the middle of the jump I stay stuck in that position until my next turn where I then continue my movement.
So for two rounds in a row I use up a move action.
Scenario #2
I am walking down a corridor (using a move action) and fall into a 40 foot pit. I fall (free action) and hit the bottom taking 4d6 points of damage. I fail my save to stay upright and am now prone. Since my movement was interrupted like that I do indeed loose any additional movement I had left in my move action.
I did no get charged an action for the fall and thus I can make a move or standard action as normal. Say I stand up as a move action; that makes the two move actions in one round and my turn is over.
Scenario #3
I am walking down a corridor, I have a 30' normal movement; and I state I am making a double move (2 move actions). However after moving 25' I fall into a 40 foot pit. I fall (free action) and hit the bottom taking 4d6 points of damage. I fail my save to stay upright and am now prone. Since my movement was interrupted like that I do indeed loose any additional movement I had left in my move action - in this case 5'. Do I loose my second move action because I fell? Of course not: thus I can make a move or standard action as normal.
Scenario #4
I am walking down a corridor, I have a 30' normal movement; and I state I am making a double move (2 move actions). However after moving 45' I fall into a 40 foot pit. I fall (free action) and hit the bottom taking 4d6 points of damage. I fail my save to stay upright and am now prone. Since my movement was interrupted like that I do indeed loose any additional movement I had left in my move action - in this case 15'. I already took my first move action and my second move action was interrupted - my turn is over.
Scenario #5
I am walking down a corridor and see a pit in the floor. I look down and decide that I want to jump down there; intentionally attempting to aim my fall and land properly. I burn a move action as I "jump down" fall and land. Now I still have a move action or standard action I can take this round.
Scenario #6
I am walking down a corridor and see a pit in the floor. I look down and decide that I want to fall down there; intentionally just stepping into mid air by making a 5 foot move. I am not trying to aim myself or make any attempt to point my feet forward first.
To quote myself:
SBMC said:
SBMC said:
This is no covered in the rules. As I stated above: I would say that that is indeed a 5 foot step. However because I stepped off of here I can
A. Burn a move action and fall and take max damage (4d6=24 points) and take a -40 penalty to my save to stay upright (better off just jumping down when you have the chance).
B. Take no further actions (even if I have some left) and stay in midair until my next turn. Then on my next turn fall, that fall happens first thing the your turn before anything else; you have no chance to get an action off before you fall. The pit is 40' so I hit the ground and take 24 points of damage and get a -40 penalty to stay upright when I land.
To clarify:
SBMC said:
Now in the event that say the character does not hit the ground on that subsequent round (say the pit is 100 feet deep) then once the character does hit the bottom he takes 60 points of damage (and in my game that calls for a save - we use that variant rule (I forget the name at the moment) where if you take 50 points of damage from one attack you need to make a fort save or die. We also use the "clobbered" variant rule. You also get a -100 to your roll to stay upright (making it pretty much impossible)
The only game mechanics advantage to this is for the character that you can take a full round action on the turn that you step off that ledge; BEFORE you make that step. I can be advantageous if the fall will take longer than one round and you want to take a full round action on the turn that you step off that ledge; BEFORE you make that step. Then on that second round you can still take your 2 actions as normal while falling. The kicker is you take all that damage and pretty much most non epic characters will end up prone.
Infiniti2000
First Post
Am I the only one who refuses to read SBMC's text for fear of losing my eyesight? Maybe I'm just getting too old, but that font+color is painful to read.
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