D&D 5E Blees Still Broken/OP?

[UngeheuerLich]

Thank you. That is what I mean with easy math problem.
As you just showed however is that at low levels the effect is marginal. So moving it up to level 2 just prevents you more or less wasting a spell slot in most circumstances... On the other hand, at level 20, 29 more damage per round does not seem all that broken when the concentration slot could be used on 9th level spells or just a level 9 hold person, which may add a lot more damage. And prevents damage if you manage to not lose concentration... which is probably easier than not losing concentration on bless, because less attackers are left attacking.
But yes. It is a low level spell you may always fall back on.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Actually bless is in the same spot as shield and counterspell and diapell magic and even fireball. A spell a well prepared caster should always have a available because there are few spells as useful in so many situations.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Not for nothing, and I land more on your side with my evaluation of the spell (great, but not always the best use of concentration), but did you really not understand that when he said the spell is "+2 to all attack rolls and saving throws" he implicitly meant when the spell is active? Did you really think he was claiming that bless grants this bonus even when no one has cast it?

It was the way it was misleadingly worded, making it seem better than it really is in play. Celtavian's original post strongly alluded to [/i]bless[/i] being so great because of the constant benefit it provides. But its not providing that bonus to "all" their rolls. Just the ones dureing the short duration the spell is active. And a cleric, in practical play, is not likely to be able to have bless up for everything. That was only ever my point. Outside of white-room analysis, bless's short duration, concentration requirement, and competition with the limited daily resource of spell slots, has shown my IMX to be extremely hard to have reliably active for the bulk of an adventuring day's encounters.

But it's all good. Celtavian clarified his stance and agreed with me.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Its more that when you don't pick up the extra dice unless you need it (just how we play it), its more obvious in the game how often you don't actually need it. If you roll it for each attack and save its not as apparent how often it does or doesn't make a difference I guess. Players forgetting aside, it seems that in most combats they rarely need the bless effect as missing by 2-3 (and then also rolling at least that on the d4) doesn't seem to happen that much over a 4-5 round combat. There is a bit of a running joke in our group of how average it seems much of the time, with the other players joking that my cleric must have fallen out of favour as his 'blessing is weak'.

This. Especially given Celtavian's earlier acknowledgement that bounded accuracy keeps AC's down and easy to reach. What good is that "+2", if you're already hitting consistently? But that's the dirty little secret about bless.

Yeah, the save bonuses are useful in the right encounter. That's when I tend to cast bless when fighting stuff that poisons or paralyses and the downside of a failed save are pretty bad.

Also this.

 

[Prism]

Math time. Not including blesses saving throw bonus, just damage.


Worst condition. 1 attacker with 1d8+3.
1d8+3 * .125 = 0.9375 damage per round.

Moderate condition. 2 attackers with 1d8+4 and 2 attacks, 1 with sharp shooter.
(2d8+18) * .125 * 2= 6.75 damage per round.

Optimal bless condition of 3 attackers with 1d8+5, sharpshooter, and 4 attacks.
(3d8+45) * .125 * 4 = 29.25 damage per round.


Spiritual Weapon.
1d8+3 * .60 = 4.5 damage per round. No concentration, cast / maintain with a bonus action. (so 1 extra sacred flame).

Spiritual Guardian.
3d8 * .6 + 3d8*.4/2 = 10.8 damage per round. AoE.


So bless is only broken if you build around it. Though i still think it should be moved up to a level 2 spell.

I think of those examples the moderate condition is a good one as it happens between levels 5 and 10 when other important concentration spells appear and compete. With that party doing an extra 6.75 damage a round total it doesn't seem to out of place for a level one spell, compared to spiritual weapon doing 4.5 damage plus the extra action on the casting round. To be honest that's my preferred damage dealer spell as it leaves a cleric open to cast hold person, pro evil, silence etc.

Meet something which requires multiple saving throws vs effects then bless is probably the spell to cast

 

[Prism]

This. Especially given Celtavian's earlier acknowledgement that bounded accuracy keeps AC's down and easy to reach. What good is that "+2", if you're already hitting consistently? But that's the dirty little secret about bless.

Well even if you hit on a 6+, bless can be somewhat useful but your right that over the course of a combat the overall effect would be likely very small. As Mellored points out one miss converted to a hit roughly 1 in 10 attacks

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Well even if you hit on a 6+, bless can be somewhat useful but your right that over the course of a combat the overall effect would be likely very small. As Mellored points out one miss converted to a hit roughly 1 in 10 attacks

Exactly. Bless is clearly a useful spell. It *should* have an impact. More so when cast at the right times. Less so at the wrong times. I just think some people tend to over-state it's resultant benefits in actual table play. Perhaps due to such things as white-room chicanery, confirmation bias, rose-tinted glasses, nostalgia, 20/20 hindsight, just plain poor math aptitude, or maybe even because of this phenomenon: http://www.bbc.com/news/health-27193607.

That's all.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Perhaps due to such things as white-room chicanery, ... , rose-tinted glasses, .

Does wearing rose-tinted glasses while doing white-room chicanery result in pink eye?

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Does wearing rose-tinted glasses while doing white-room chicanery result in pink eye?

And you only get that 20/20 hindsight if those are prescription lenses!

 

[mellored]

I think of those examples the moderate condition is a good one as it happens between levels 5 and 10 when other important concentration spells appear and compete. With that party doing an extra 6.75 damage a round total it doesn't seem to out of place for a level one spell, compared to spiritual weapon doing 4.5 damage plus the extra action on the casting round. To be honest that's my preferred damage dealer spell as it leaves a cleric open to cast hold person, pro evil, silence etc.

Meet something which requires multiple saving throws vs effects then bless is probably the spell to cast

A big part of bless's issue is that it scales.


It's fine from 1-4, but as soon as you hit 5, the moderate use case jumps to dealing 13.5 damage per round.


Edit: My mistake, i already calculated for 2 attacks. Though, there's plenty of other additional damage, like rage, hunter's mark, +2 Str, ect...