D&D 5E Blees Still Broken/OP?

[Greg Benage]

Not for nothing, and I land more on your side with my evaluation of the spell (great, but not always the best use of concentration), but did you really not understand that when he said the spell is "+2 to all attack rolls and saving throws" he implicitly meant when the spell is active? Did you really think he was claiming that bless grants this bonus even when no one has cast it?

 

[NotActuallyTim]

Not for nothing, and I land more on your side with my evaluation of the spell (great, but not always the best use of concentration), but did you really not understand that when he said the spell is "+2 to all attack rolls and saving throws" he implicitly meant when the spell is active? Did you really think he was claiming that bless grants this bonus even when no one has cast it?

"Blees: A spell so good you don't even need to cast it!"

See, now that would be broken.

 

[Greg Benage]

"And on the seventh day, the LORD cast Blees, and henceforth all the great creatures in the sea, and the birds in the air, and the creatures that move along the ground did receive +2 to all attack rolls and saving throws, and He saw that it was good."

 

[n00b f00]

Yeah Celt I'm really glad you picked down from your claim, and finally acknowledged you need to cast bless to receive the benefits of bless.

 

[Celtavian]

Yeah Celt I'm really glad you picked down from your claim, and finally acknowledged you need to cast bless to receive the benefits of bless.

Haha. Yes, you do need to spend a slot and cast the spell first. Bless is good, but not that good.

 

[Prism]

I have been playing a life cleric up to level 10 and when I cast bless the players keep the rolling simple by not using the extra 1d4 unless they just miss an attack or saving throw. What I have noticed from doing it this way is that the extra d4 is hardly ever used and in many fights its benefit has been questionable to zero. Often the extra dice is not needed at all and I have wasted a slot and a round. Other times the player misses, rolls the extra 1d4 and still misses. Other times my cleric loses concentration by being hit or wanting to cast something else (encounter changing) like hold person. And occasionally the spell turns a miss into a hit. In fact the spell has so little effect on the combat it seems that the other players often forget its running and I have to remind them.

I would say its an ok spell in general but hardly an encounter changer unlike a timely healing word, hold person or dismissal. But then its only a first level spell so I guess that's fine

 

[Celtavian]

I have been playing a life cleric up to level 10 and when I cast bless the players keep the rolling simple by not using the extra 1d4 unless they just miss an attack or saving throw. What I have noticed from doing it this way is that the extra d4 is hardly ever used and in many fights its benefit has been questionable to zero. Often the extra dice is not needed at all and I have wasted a slot and a round. Other times the player misses, rolls the extra 1d4 and still misses. Other times my cleric loses concentration by being hit or wanting to cast something else (encounter changing) like hold person. And occasionally the spell turns a miss into a hit. In fact the spell has so little effect on the combat it seems that the other players often forget its running and I have to remind them.

I would say its an ok spell in general but hardly an encounter changer unlike a timely healing word, hold person or dismissal. But then its only a first level spell so I guess that's fine

Very different experiences with the spell.

Bless is always used on rolls. It is especially loved by those using Great Weapon Fighter or Sharpshooter or a powerful spell that requires a hit roll. Bless greatly lessens the negative associated with using the -5/+10 feats allowing a big damage boost for those that use them. I have yet to run a group that doesn't have one or both of those feats. We almost have at least one player that makes a ranged attacker with Sharpshooter. When bless is going, players are more likely to use higher level slots for spells like chromatic orb or scorching ray knowing the bless bonus will help them hit.

It has saved our ass many times when making saves. That extra d4 has been the difference between failure and success, especially for those without save bonuses. Lots of nasty stuff at higher level to save against and a +1d4 bonus is a real boon. It even helps with Concentration saves to help keep spells up and active.

Bless is never forgotten by our group. One player that loves playing bards always gets bless on his spell list. Bless has been one of the most reliable means to boost damage and defend against high save effects. We rarely forget to use it in the most important battles in adventures. It's a huge boon that almost always provides a noticeable and effective benefit to the party members that have it on them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It is a simple math problem and a little bit more complicated perception problem.

Math: are the 12.5% increased chance to hit increasing damage wnough to make it worth in that situation with your character built as it is. Which includes...
Opportunity cost of casting that spell instead of for example attack and cast spiritual weapon and attack again.
...Is the slot used effectively or is it wasted.
...Is the damage caused by the creature you didn'g just kill with maximzed thunder wave higher than the damage you received from the creatures who died faster due to bless or the damage you mitigated by your saving throw bonus.

Perception:
...Are the character generation and leveling resources spent for maximzing the use of bless too expensively. Is your effectivity smallered due to the one and only tactic your group optimized?
...How often do you notice it working?
...Which kind of fights does your group and DM favour.
...What is the reason for the fights?
...Could a simple sleep or charm person or invisibility spell have prevented that fight altogether?
... How good at working together are your Players/are the characters sticking to tactics (it may be metagaming a lot for a random group playing the perfectly trained team.)

And the last thing: Is a spell really broken when it is good in situations it is designed to be good? My claim: if bless was just a little worse, it would be beokenly underpowered.

My only Idea to balance it differently in groups that tend to optimze for that spell: Make it a bonus action cast spell and give a fixed pool of dice to the affected players and allow only one of them to be spent per round. Would make it even more tactical and less explotable.

 

[Prism]

Very different experiences with the spell.

Bless is always used on rolls.

Its more that when you don't pick up the extra dice unless you need it (just how we play it), its more obvious in the game how often you don't actually need it. If you roll it for each attack and save its not as apparent how often it does or doesn't make a difference I guess. Players forgetting aside, it seems that in most combats they rarely need the bless effect as missing by 2-3 (and then also rolling at least that on the d4) doesn't seem to happen that much over a 4-5 round combat. There is a bit of a running joke in our group of how average it seems much of the time, with the other players joking that my cleric must have fallen out of favour as his 'blessing is weak'.

It has saved our ass many times when making saves. That extra d4 has been the difference between failure and success, especially for those without save bonuses. Lots of nasty stuff at higher level to save against and a +1d4 bonus is a real boon. It even helps with Concentration saves to help keep spells up and active.

Yeah, the save bonuses are useful in the right encounter. That's when I tend to cast bless when fighting stuff that poisons or paralyses and the downside of a failed save are pretty bad.

 

[mellored]

Math time. Not including blesses saving throw bonus, just damage.


Worst condition. 1 attacker with 1d8+3.
1d8+3 * .125 = 0.9375 damage per round.

Moderate condition. 2 attackers with 1d8+4 and 2 attacks, 1 with sharp shooter.
(2d8+18) * .125 * 2= 6.75 damage per round.

Optimal bless condition of 3 attackers with 1d8+5, sharpshooter, and 4 attacks.
(3d8+45) * .125 * 4 = 29.25 damage per round.


Spiritual Weapon.
1d8+3 * .60 = 4.5 damage per round. No concentration, cast / maintain with a bonus action. (so 1 extra sacred flame).

Spiritual Guardian.
3d8 * .6 + 3d8*.4/2 = 10.8 damage per round. AoE.


So bless is only broken if you build around it. Though i still think it should be moved up to a level 2 spell.