Blog: Resilient Heroes

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Sunseeker

Guest
@ the OP

Healing surges can only be used by an associated power. If you drop to zero and you've got no powers to use a surge, you're still just as dead as if you didn't have surges. You don't just hit 0 and say "I spend a healing surge".

You can be dead with 10 surges, you can be dead with 0.

Personally, I always thought this was an artificial relationship. Players should have a few number of surges(lets say con mod surges, minimum 1), and be able to use them at THEIR control, while healing should be it's own thing, no relation to surges. IMO, surges are your limited ability to self-recover before, during, or after a fight. Healing magic is well, healing. And anyone can use bandages.
 

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Naszir

First Post
If hit points are a mashup of actual physical damage, fatigue, luck, skill etc why can't some of those hit points come back at the end of a short rest. No need for surges. Each character automatically regains a portion (say 1/2 of the damage taken from the pervious encounter), but only a portion because most of the physcial damage sticks around. The portion regained represents the breather your character is taken to recover from the fatigue of the last battle, it represents the fact that the body can ignore/recover from some of the minor bumps and bruises and that luck happens from encounter to encounter and is not a continually depleted resource.

Instead of just subtracting damage from your hit point total you track damage along side your hit points. Once your damage equals your hit point total your character is unconcious/dying. So when you take damage from an encounter some of that damage is recovered after the encounter is over without having to track surges.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Speaking purely personally, WP/VP doesn't do it for me. I feel that we already have a measurement in the game of attrition and damage. It's called "hit points."

I do like the idea of hit points doing their job better, but the distinction seems a little pointless to me. If the idea is to allow more personal healing, then we need to add more ways to personally heal to the game (the Heal skill, Second Wind, a steady IV drip of potions, whatever) rather than making a new HP system.

I also think this has bang-on effects for the exploration portion of the game. A deadly trap that riddles you with poison darts seems less psychologically potent when you can simply surge away the damage. Turning those surges into raw HP changes the calculus: human beings being very risk-averse, the punch of loosing HP you can't get back is much more potent than loosing HP, then loosing surges.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
I also think this has bang-on effects for the exploration portion of the game. A deadly trap that riddles you with poison darts seems less psychologically potent when you can simply surge away the damage. Turning those surges into raw HP changes the calculus: human beings being very risk-averse, the punch of loosing HP you can't get back is much more potent than loosing HP, then loosing surges.

I suspect that this effect is less inherent to surges, and more specific to the proportion of surges to hit points. 60 hit points, 8 surges that can effectively triple that number, with each surge returning 25% of the total, could have some of that psychological effect. Change it to 120 hit points, with 4 surges, each restoring 15 hit points, and it won't seem nearly so potent. (I realize 5E wants to use smaller numbers, which will also help. Plus, the surge value should be more like 10% than the 12.5% I have here.)

That does still leave the "bounce up from dying" bit that would have similar psychological effects, but you can rule it out too--no surge use when dying.

It might get a bit tricky to get the number of surges appropriately low to avoid this, while still making them worthwhile, yet having a bit of variety for the tougher characters. If ability scores are kept under control, perhaps the number of surges could be something like 2 + Con Mod, and assume that fighters and other such classes will naturally gravitate towards having at least a decent Con.

Now, if you do or don't like surges, it is pretty easy to switch them in or out (whatever the default is). You need some resource that approximates their healing ability, whether potions, rest, wands, etc. Or expect the party to be down more. And of course, the typical damage expressions in 5E would have a big effect, too, though that is true of any healing.
 

am181d

Adventurer
Speaking purely personally, WP/VP doesn't do it for me. I feel that we already have a measurement in the game of attrition and damage. It's called "hit points."

I prefer a Wounds/Vitality system myself, but I agree with the folks who say that it would require a from-the-ground-up re-imagining of the rules that doesn't meet 5e's design goals.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Crazy Jerome didn't want to get into it, but what the heck... I will. Here are the different aspects of the 4E healing mechanics that could be used or not used, either in part or in total. Some of these things might be more tolerable to many people, depending on which parts get used.

The Healing Surge Value

This is 1/4th of your total hit points. All healing abilities use this number for how much HP you get back, rather than a number of dice worth of HP. Proportional healing. So depending on the power level of the heal, you might get one HSV's worth of points, or you might get several HSV's worth of points. In 5E, this could be adapted in such a way that rather than Cure Serious Wounds giving a PC back 3d8 + level in HPs... it might give you 3 Healing Surge Values (i.e. 3/4th of total HP) back.

The Second Wind

Each PC having his own personal "healing spell" (for lack of a better term) that a player can give to himself. It assumes that the HP the PC recovers from the Second Wind fall into the "fatigue/morale" part of what hit points mean... not that the PC is actually seeing their wounds close a la Wolverine. 4E has it as once per fight and is usable in battle... but it could also be changed to once per day (or some other amount of time) and/or only usable between fights. Several options on the "self-healing" front.

Proponents like the idea of a player having a way to regain some HP for his character during a fight... especially when the PC is fighting by himself or the party has no access to a "healer" type of character. Opponents often are ones who lean more towards "HP are wounds", and thus "self-healing" for them becomes Wolverine-like.

The Total Healing Surges Available

This number becomes the defacto way of determining "How hurt really am I?" in 4E, away from the traditional Hit Point Total. Pre-4E, your hit points would not return without overnight/long-term rest or the use of magic, so you were considered "wounded" when you were without some part of your hit points throughout the course of the day. In 4E, you can regain hit points without magic or long-term rest... but it's now your current number of healing surges that cannot. So a PC with half his healing surges gone is "wounded", even if he has total hit points. Total Healing Surges have replaced Hit Points conceptually as the method for determining if a PC is actually hurt.

Opponents find this redefinition of Hit Points away from tradition to be the major stumbling block (if not an outright anathema) to their acceptance of the system... because it removes the idea of HP itself being physical "wounds". Having HP be practically ALL just fatigue/morale/luck doesn't sit right with how they see the combat system. Proponents oftentimes don't care about any of that, because they see combat as *so* abstract that they just don't make those connections between HP and "wounds".

Death Saves & Non-Magical Healing

If we accept for the sake of argument the 4E premise that Hit Points are not actually physical "wounds", but rather are pool of fatigue/morale/luck points... non-magical healing can make a bit of sense. A warlord could inspire someone to shake off the cobwebs and get back into the fight (i.e. - spend a healing surge to regain hit points).

The disconnect comes then with the idea that someone could actually DIE as a result of an empty pool of fatigue/morale/luck. Once someone drops to 0 fatigue/morale/luck... they then make Death Saves each round and if they fail three, the PC dies. Which on the face of it by definition does not seemingly make any sense... because a PC isn't INJURED at that point, they are just exhausted or out of luck. And this is true unless you as the player are willing to go through the effort to create for yourself an explanation of what those death saves actually represent (like that that final failed death save is some monster coming over and delivering a "death blow" for example.) However, the narrative of the game itself does not define this for you, and thus there is a disconnect in the fiction of the game between what Hit Points represent, and what Death Saves represent.

So there are a couple questions that have to be asked here. In terms of "dying" after dropping below 0 hit points... which is more preferable? Losing a set number of HP each round until the PC reaches some death number (whatever you set this "death" number to be-- Negative 10, Negative CON, Negative 'Bloodied' value)... or making a 4E Saving throw each round and failing 3? Is one easier mechanically to keep track of? Does one have a better fictional narrative to hang on the mechanics?

And does the ability to counteract this death during combat by the use of non-magical healing automatically create a disconnect in the fiction? Should non-magical healing in combat be able to accomplish this? If not, what needs to happen to the system's mechanics and fiction to allow for parties that do not have a "magical healer" to save someone from bleeding out and dying? Do we WANT a non-magical healer to be able to do that?

*****

These are just several issues that make up the totality of the "healing surge" system. And it's definitely the case that you can deconstruct the system into its individual parts and pick and choose to use some that might work for most people, and some which won't.

But at the end of the day... my own personal belief of the whole issue comes down to one specific thing that is the dividing line and the cause for all the redefining of what damage is, what healing is, what hit points are, what death is, etc.:

Should the Cleric be the only truly capable "healer" in the game, or should there be others that could take its place within a party?

Because if the answer is that there should be others... then it opens the Pandora's box of one of them potentially being a "non-magical" healer, and then you have to jump back in to redefine (or crystalize) what hit points/damage/healing really are, and alienating players who don't like the new definition.
 
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Mengu

First Post
Infinite daily healing is fine for me. I've played 3e games, where we basically had infinite healing via wands. It's not an alien concept for the game. So, after every encounter, you recover all your hit points, done.

Now, what resource do we want to rely on then, for simulating wear and tear? This is pretty easy for casters. Vancian, AEDU, or Power Point casters already have a mechanic in expendable daily resources. Paladins might have lay on hands 3 times per day, Barbarians may be able to rage 3 times per day, so there is something established for a number of other classes. Then we have to deal with the more difficult classes that a lot of people seem to have problems with AEDU (particularly the D), such as Fighters and Rogues. What resource might they have that is daily? Well, I think this one can be handled to somehow please at least part of the crowd. A fighter might be able to Second Wind as a free action during his turn, 3 times per day, but after that he is too tired to do it as a free action again. A rogue may be able to Dodge a hit 3 times per day, but after that he runs out of luck, or is too exhausted.

I picked 3 times randomly, it might be 2 times, it might be 5 times, it might be level dependent, or even DM dependent, whatever...

Here is what I want: I want DM's to be able to easily put together encounters. So as DM, I want to be able to assume PC's are going to start every encounter with the same number of hit points. This puts a lot less strain on the potential swing an encounter can have due to initiative, or how worn out the PC's are from previous encounters. I also want DM's to be able to determine the approximate length of the adventuring day. Some groups like to play 1 combat days, some groups like 2-4, some like 4-7, and sometimes it's a mix. I don't necessarily want to be strapped down by a system enforced limit on how much combat a group can handle in an adventuring day.

I also want to note, I think a heavy reliance on wand/potion healing is just a terrible idea as a system wide mechanic. Character wealth and magic items should not affect the system in such a crucial way. Do we want people to recover all their hit points between encounters? If the answer is yes, just make it so. Saying "yes, but only if your characters are wealthy enough, and your DM allows magic items" is just a needless hindrance.

Should there be healing potions in the game? Probably, but that discussion would need to take place after a solid non-magic item reliant healing system is in place.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Should the Cleric be the only truly capable "healer" in the game, or should there be others that could take its place within a party?

Because if the answer is that there should be others... then it opens the Pandora's box of one of them potentially being a "non-magical" healer, and then you have to jump back in to redefine (or crystalize) what hit points/damage/healing really are, and alienating players who don't like the new definition.

I don't think so. Divine healing magic.

There are our three key words.

What are we doing? Healing.
How are we accomplishing it? Magic.
What type of Magic? Divine.

Now, anyone can heal others, bandage injuries, spot treatment, ect..
How do we do it the best? Through Magic.
The last part of "divine" is wholly unnecessary. To use 4e's "power sources", we've still got primal, which is the power of nature. Nature is the real traditional healer, long before the very judeo-christian idea of a "cleric" we went to mother earth for our remedies.

So we've got at least two sources for healing, and given the half a dozen or so classes for each one of them I think we could reasonably establish Cleric, Priest, Shaman, Druid healers. That's 4 classes that could have healing builds.

So I would say no, there is no reason to make the cleric the only healing-capable class.
 

gweinel

Explorer
As a previous poster said i think this article is very relevant with the departure of Monte. I suspect that the healing surge subject - which is very popular game feature at least in the wizards's forums - would find more support to the 4e funs, being ultimetly a goodwill gesture to them saying "don't worry, we are hearing what you say and we gonna have a version of your beloved healing surges".
I have not solid facts for this but this is my intuition...

Turning to the essence of the article, i will talk about my experience with this feature. Me and my gaming found that healing surges and the way healing was working was probably the most repulsive element of 4e. It was too pc gamey in nature with constant high and lows and ultimately destroying our gaming immersion. The worst thing was that this game feature was way too hardcoded to game system and you could not just abolish it without making constant modifications. The healing system was both tied to the power system and to the combats/day system. That led to play a game that didn't suit us. Right now we have droped 4e after almost 4 years of constant playing. It is not the only reason but one of the major ones.

For me and i think for my gaming group the healing should be tied with the magical healing (like the clerical. druidical, bardish healing of 3e) and to a very limited (in comparison with the magical) form of natural healing through the heal skill. Heal checks could heal few hit points after a combat. Surely these hit points should be fewer than the healing spell of the same level.

Any way of healing (and actually any game feature) that resembles a pc game would be a huge disapointment for me and for my group and probably a reason to not invest to the new iteration of the game...
 


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