Blood Wind, touch range spells, and summons.

[HiddenLineage]

Two questions. Blood Wind lets you make ranged natural weapon attacks. Touch spells you have to touch them with your bare hand, which technically would be a natural weapon. So if you cast Blood Wind, could you use a spell like Chill Touch at range?

And also...How do I make summoning stuff viable? They all just seem so....so....weak.

 

[Dandu]

Hands are not natural weapons by default for humans and most other humanoid races.

What about summons strikes you as weak?

 

[HiddenLineage]

I had a friend DMing a game, and my wife would summon monsters frequently, and I would summon Undead frequently. None of them lasted more than a round or two(Except when my wife's Fiendish Centipede was going one on one with a boss and beat him, completely ruining the DM's entire plans for the fight, off of nothing but lucky rolls for him and crappy for the boss).

They just don't seem to have the punch to giving up spell slots for, and actively using.


I wanna try to make a Homebrew Summoner type class, but I'm a bit at a loss. Just feels like he won't be as effective as a normal caster.

 

[Dandu]

Let me investigate this issue. I don't play summoners, but I have seen a few and they seemed reasonably effective.

Could you fabricate a situation for a summoner? Set the level of the character and determine the enemy so I have something to work with.

 

[HiddenLineage]

At the time I was playing a Dread Necromancer, and it didn't matter which level I was at in Summon Undead. Even at Summon Undead V, they couldn't keep up with my touch spells in damage, or take more than a single hit from an opponent without getting demolished. I know a Dread Necromancer is more about animating Undead(He had a Mummy, got an Alip, and a Vampire Spawn whom he tortured).

Got in a few fights with a good amount of opponents and tried to even the odds...but the summoned ones went splat on the same round they were summoned.

 

[Dandu]

Perhaps the Summoner's Handbook might help?

I don't know much about Summon Undead (being somewhat more familiar with Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally), but I think a well played summoner has much to contribute.

If you would state a level for an example summoner and throw out a CR appropriate enemy, I could try to demonstrate how a summoned creature can contribute to a party.

 

[HiddenLineage]

To be honest, I have no idea how to find a CR appropriate enemy. Embarrassing I know. Still learning, but Summon Undead caps out at V.

Here is the complete list.
SUMMON UNDEAD LISTS
1st Level: Human warrior skeleton (MM 226), kobold zombie (MM 266)
2nd Level: Owlbear skeleton (MM 226), bugbear zombie (MM 267).
3rd Level: Ghoul (MM 118), troll skeleton (MM 227), ogre zombie (MM 267).
4th Level: Allip (MM 10), ghast (MM 119), wyvern zombie (MM 267).
5th Level: Mummy (MM 190), shadow (MM 221), vampire spawn (MM 253), wight
(MM 255).

Maybe it was the situations my GM placed us in...but they just didn't seem to get the job done.

 

[Dandu]

Well, a party of level X characters is expected to spend about 25% of party resources when going up against a CR X monster. Obviously more resources for higher CR monsters, less for lower CR monsters. The Ice Devil, for instance, is a CR 13 monster that should be moderately challenging for the "average" party of level 13 characters.

What situation did your DM place you in?

 

[HiddenLineage]

One I remember was against an assault of Undead. 2 Undead Barbarians in a Rage, 3 mummies, some other monster I couldn't remember.

Our team was me(Dread Necromancer, had an Allip, but useless in this fight), my wife's Cleric/Bone Knight, an Undead Saughin Monk, and a Half Orc Warrior.

Summoned in the Wyvern Zombie, and it got rofflestomped by the Barbarians. Combo of the Saughin, Clerk, and Warrior got them down in two turns. And I got lucky and rolled a 20 for a Rebuke on the mummies on my next turn.

Point is, my little minion got beat like he owed 'em money.

Not to mention fights where if we got hit once, it'd almost kill us.(Level 3 and fighting a Red Dragon. Chill Touch saved the day with Str drain....barely. Of course I got my face bashed in for it.)

 

[Dandu]

It might have been the circumstances, considering that the enemies included 3 monster from your Summon Undead V list and you had one monster from the Summon Undead IV list. I don't know what level the undead barbarians were (PC classes are meant to take on zombie wyverns, after all) but there seems to have been a disparity of force in that encounter.

If you asked this question over at Brilliant Gameologists, I'm sure they could come up with some interesting builds and strategies for you as there's defiantly a few summoning specialists there.