D&D 5E Blow it up! What class need to be completely re-worked in 5e?

[Aldarc]

Partly, but 4e's desire to stretch the druid into the more broad Primal power source was also derived from the 3e druid being so multifaceted. (Or, as the kids these days like to say, OP.)

All full-casters in 3E who prepared spells were Top Tier levels of OP. And a lot of that "OPness" in 3E for the druid, in addition to the aforementioned Tier 1 status imparted by the prepared nature of their spells, had more to do with the sheer power level of Wild Shape, particularly when coupled with the Natural Spell feat at 6th level, which resulted in the druid not having to choose between Wild Shape's exploration/combat utility or spells. (Compare that with the 5E druid who does not get the equivalent of Natural Spell until 18th level.) If you took Natural Spell out of 3E, or at least increased the level requirements, and nerfed some of the Wild Shape forms, the 3E Druid would be in a lot less OP state.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Sacrosanct]

You know, I don't have nearly the animosity towards paladins that lowkey has, but with the way 5e is designed, what's the point? I mean if you look at the archetype, it can be covered by a fighter or cleric. A paladin was pretty much just a holy warrior, good and just and blah blah blah. One of my longest running and favorite PCs of all time was Merdock, a LG fighter. I didn't have the stats to make him a paladin, so I was a fighter that I played exactly like a paladin. If you want spell casting abilities, why not just do a subclass of the fighter very similar to the EK but with divine spells of healing and abjuration, and subclass features that are like the holy aura's and lay on hands? Why need a separate class for it? And if you want the divine warrior route, just be a cleric of war.

On a design sense, I know why they would never release an edition of D&D without the paladin; it just wouldn't feel right. But from a practical sense, it's not needed at all. And lowkey could be happy

 

[Tony Vargas]

Partly, but 4e's desire to stretch the druid into the more broad Primal power source was also derived from the 3e druid being so multifaceted.

'Stretched?' It looked more like chopped to pieces...

All full-casters in 3E who prepared spells were Top Tier levels of OP. And a lot of that "OPness" in 3E for the druid, in addition to the aforementioned Tier 1 status imparted by the prepared nature of their spells...
If you took Natural Spell out of 3E, or at least increased the level requirements, and nerfed some of the Wild Shape forms, the 3E Druid would be in a lot less OP state.

But still Tier 1, as a prepped caster.

And the 5e version of prepped casting includes at-will cantrips and subsumes spontaneous casting. (and spontaneous casting in 5e is, if anything, also more flexible since you can meaningfully cast a spell in a higher level slot without needing a metamagic feat)

I'd say 'blow up the prepped casters,' but, really, there are much simpler fixes than that - like prepping spells directly into slots instead of having a separate prep list.

I wouldn't use a carpet, though. Maybe down a hole?

Good point, this is D&D, you never know, the carpet could fly away...

 

[BookBarbarian]

To address the OP:

Barbarian - kill it. Seriously. The rage should be put into a Fighter subclass. Also, why do totems only work if you have anger management issues? It's a hot mess.

Bard - Mixed feelings. I kind of enjoy them, but they really are kind of a weird concept. Keep them so you don't have to have Clerics for heal bots. Maybe make them a bit more druid-y and a bit less skill monkey.

Cleric - Blow it up. Remove turn undead (not Channel Divinity, just turning); maybe leave it for a domain or two, but nuke it from the core class. Also, less tanky. Either reserve the heavy armor for war domain only (what complete freaking imbecile decided a Life Cleric should have heavy armor?) or give the base class only light armor and grant medium armor to anyone currently getting heavy.

Druid - Blow it up. I think this one is beyond salvaging. Just go ahead and make it the home of all the weird nature things that don't go anywhere else. Pick your subclass: Shifter, Totem, Animal Companion, Spells. Pick one. Shut up because no one loves you, anyway.

Fighter - Someone has to be the best at fighting. These guys should be it.

Monk - Erm... Dunno. The class doesn't suck, but maybe it should be moved into a supplement. Maybe the one with the Mystic.

Paladin - Keep it, but only so the Cleric doesn't have to have heavy armor. Either that, or just make the player use multiclassing to get a homicidal priest.

Ranger - Aragorn. With the Barbarian dead and the pets moved to the hippy Druids, the Ranger is free to be the hardest SOB to kill in the game. Sure, they can do reasonable damage. Not as much as the Fighter or the Rogue -- at least not all at once. They'll just live long enough for it to balance out.

Rogue - Thief and skill monkey. The sneak attack is nice, but there shouldn't actually be a debate about whether a swashbuckler (swordsman) would be better built using the Fighter class or not (hint: if your job is to stick the other guy with a weapon, use the Fighter).

Sorcerer - The original purpose was to make spell slots suck less. 5E has obsoleted this need, so nuke at will. If you're going to keep it, then make the mechanics actually play out like someone with magic running through their blood. Casting spells just like a Wizard does not capture that feel. Either excuse them from VSM or give them a new power structure. Either way, when it's all done, it'll probably make a great Psion, too.

Warlock - Aren't these guys just Sorcerers with a lease? The original Warlock was awesome because the core premise was magic without resource management. That's not what we got in 5E. Either put it back to zero resource management or merge it with Sorcerer and make them late bloomers.

Wizard - They finally fixed Vancian slots! But, they broke the schools of magic. The Evoker needs to be kicked in the junk. Maybe keep the schools, but not structure the sub-classes around them.

You took all my thoughts and feels and put them in a post. bravo.

 

[BookBarbarian]

IMO, all classes need to be tied to their theme/story more. There's also too much overlap.


Artificer -> They need to prepare all their items ahead of time, which is a slow proccess. They get X craft points, but can only spend a few of them each long rest in order to craft potions, bombs, imbue wands, program golems, magic item, etc..., which can also be given to allies. Items remain enchanted until used, or you disenchant it, which they can do remotely durring a long rest. If they die, it remains enchanted, which is how items came to be. Powerful if they prepared correctly, weak if they did not.

Clerics -> Mostly good, but could use a stronger theming with the spells. Pick 1 major and 2 minor domains. You get sub-class features and high-level spells from the major domain and low level spells from the minor domain. Add land druid domains.

Druid -> Combines ranger, totem barbarian, werewolf, 4e warden, 4e shaman, etc... into gish-y half casters that can buff themselves with nature spirits and shapeshifting. Flexible combatants can shift from speed, damage, defense, vision, stealth, grapple, support, or whatever on the fly (bonus action).

Paladin -> No spells. The only class with heavy armor and martial weapons. Oath abilities only trigger when you are doing oath-things (i.e. vengeance can smite someone who dealt him damage). Including things like oath of rage (beserker), and oath of leadership (4e warlord). Powerful when following his oath, weak without.

Sorcerer -> No preparing spells or spell slots. Instead, you have spell point and meta-magic to spontaneously build-a-spell. Includes bard with spontaneous build-a-song. Flexible casters.

Mystic -> Mostly good as is, but power points are short rest. Add the order of the fist (monk) discipline.

Warlock -> Mostly good, but could still use stronger tie to the story. Recharge spells by appeasing your patron. Reduce eldrich blast, and add escape options.

Wizard -> Mostly good as is, but allow preparing spells during a short rest. Somewhat flexible.



Fighter is just a bag of numbers, so he's gone. There can be a simple paladin oath for those who want simple guy with weapons.
Rogue (and bards expertise) only makes the DC's go up for everyone else. It can now be reduced by 5 across the board. Cunning action is fun, but not enough of a theme to base a whole class on.

So if I wanted to play a non-magical and not sworn to an oath character what class would I take?

 

[Aldarc]

But still Tier 1, as a prepped caster.

Naturally. It wasn't hard. Having 9th level spells automatically put you to 2nd Tier. Prepping 9th level spells automatically boosted you to Tier 1.

And the 5e version of prepped casting includes at-will cantrips and subsumes spontaneous casting. (and spontaneous casting in 5e is, if anything, also more flexible since you can meaningfully cast a spell in a higher level slot without needing a metamagic feat)

True, but overall a lot of spellcasting was nerfed for 5e, such as the concentration mechanic, a reduction of save or die spells, and a lack of auto-scaling (as it now requires casting from a higher slot). The strength of the divine casters, in particular, was their ability to go nova on self-buff spells.

 

[mellored]

So if I wanted to play a non-magical and not sworn to an oath character what class would I take?

Dunno. What would your special ability be? Where would your power come from?

But there can be a simple oath-of-war paladin, with easy abilities, like hit something or take damage.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Paladin -> No spells. The only class with heavy armor and martial weapons. Oath abilities only trigger when you are doing oath-things (i.e. vengeance can smite someone who dealt him damage). Including things like oath of rage (beserker), and oath of leadership (4e warlord). Powerful when following his oath, weak without.
...
Fighter is just a bag of numbers, so he's gone. There can be a simple paladin oath for those who want simple guy with weapons.

OK, now you're just intentionally provoking Lowkey13. ;P

True, but overall a lot of spellcasting was nerfed for 5e, such as the concentration mechanic, a reduction of save or die spells, and a lack of auto-scaling (as it now requires casting from a higher slot).

Nod. Relative to 3.x, the removal of limitations like AoO and the heightened flexibility of combining prepped & spontaneous into Neo-Vancian (with at-will cantrips on top), was somewhat ameliorated by nerfing some notoriously OP spells, particularly those spells now requiring concentration (though still far from the limitation that it was in the classic game). OTOH, the change from caster level to slot scaling for spell damage &c, was mitigated by a change from slot to caster level scaling for save DCs. FWLIW.

Dunno. What would your special ability be? Where would your power come from?

Moar hps, moar damage, moar weapon & armor...

;(

...OK, point taken.

But there can be a simple oath-of-war paladin, with easy abilities, like hit something or take damage.

But not /paladin/, c'mon. 'Knight,' at least, would be a little less specific. Warrior might be good.

 

[mellored]

But not /paladin/, c'mon. 'Knight,' at least, would be a little less specific. Warrior might be good.

Those work too.

I was just attempting to keep the old names, and "Paladin" is better than "Fighter", but that might be different enough to warrant a new one. Keeping the "power from your beliefs" trope.