BLUE ROSE Returns, Championing Diversity & Inclusiveness

Back in 2005, Green Ronin published a roleplaying game called Blue Rose. It was designed by Jeremy Crawford (yep, him who works at WotC on D&D 5E), Steve "Mutants & Masterminds" Kenson (that's his actual middle name), Dawn Elliot, and John Snead, and was billed as a "romantic fantasy" game, of the genre for whom Tamora Pierce, Mercedes Lackey, and Jacqueline Carey are known. It used the True20 System, which was a slimmed-down, modified version of the d20 System, and won multiple ENnies. And now it's back!

This time round, the game will be using the Adventure Game Engine, which powers the Dragon Age RPG, and will be funded via a Kickstarter launching in April. One of Green Ronin's reasons for bringing it back is that the game tackled a number of diversity and inclusiveness related issues, and those issues are very much the subject of intense - and often unpleasant - debate and conflict today.

You can click on the cover image below for the full announcement from Green Ronin's Chris Pramas.

BlueRoseCover.jpg

What's Romantic Fantasy? It's "a subgenre of fantasy fiction, describing a fantasy story using many of the elements and conventions of the romance genre". According to Wikipedia, the genre's focus is on social, political, and romantic relationships.
 

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Nellisir

Adventurer
I have the original Blue Rose. Glad to see it's coming back. I doubt I'll play it, but I'll happily pick up a copy and check it out anyways.
 

Ace

Adventurer
When Blue Rose first came out (seemingly) ages ago, I was really excited about a game with a system that made role-play as crunchy and interesting as combat.

Blue Rose is the game that convinced me just how terribly counter-productive that idea was.

I don't really care one way or another what setting the pitch for their game. I buy a game system for its mechanics, which rarely last more than 15 minutes before I'm changing those. Things as soft and fluffy as a setting don't stand a chance.

I've read almost everything that inspired True 20 and liked most it which is amusing considering how Conservative my politics can be. I never found it hard to tweak it a bit and to make Aldis a bit more like Valdemaar which is nowhere near as fluffy bunny as some people think . Its a bit off topic but Valedemar is Liberal and Tolerant but not Progressive which are two separate things . Heck the Green Rider series wasn't especially political only it had kind of psi-magic and some of the tropes as well. The writers of True 20 kind of conflated the two as does a good part of the Leftist Entriests we've seen creeping into gaming of late. This is a product of the political issues in the US right now more than anything and its unfortunate as I like my gaming like my Starbucks free of political BS unless I start it.

As for me I mostly bought the game for its awesome magic system. Of course I also like True 20 a lot and own most of the game save a few of the every newest as well. Its maybe my favorite D20.

However the D20 mechanics don't do well with social conflicts and from what I've seen neither does AGE. In reality it ends up an action game anyway with a somewhat prog setting if you use Aldis as written. My groups certainly don't need a values lesson any more than I need one with overpriced coffee. Not everything needs to be political.

However it is possible to make social conflict rules that work well, GURPS manages it with its social engineering supplement,. Its well supported with pyramid issues and other supplements playing off it. Its not for most groups though, my guys just want to stab demon cows with swords and detonate Shaper flying saucers and such like not RP every social encounter and romance, the alleged staple of Romantic Fantasy is right out. We're mostly Dudes, Bro.YMMV of course.

After all that I have to say gaming is pretty tolerant as a hobby and I'm proud of that. we've had gay characters in games I've been in forever Vanyel Ashkevron knockoffs , bi characters, women pretending to be men ,all sorts of races and creeds, nobody cares. We've had all manner of players with Satanists and Christians and Pagans and Hindus and many different races at the same table, playing, hanging out getting along. Sometimes I wish we could share that with others. I'm a grown up and I know we can't but now and than its great to be a geek.
 
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Ace

Adventurer
Is that the same Steve Kenson who wrote the re-boot Shadowrun trilogy, back in '05 ? Because if so, then I'm down for a pre-order.

Yep I believe so . He also wrote Mutants and Masterminds too. Blue Rose is a great game as is True 20 and while the AGE system used in Dragon age is different , more structured and less free form its still pretty good from what I can tell and this release will add one of my favorite magic systems too it.
 

dd.stevenson

Super KY
I'm always on the lookout for new and interesting mechanics, especially if they can be stolen for use in D&D.

EDIT: Finished reading Chris's post. I feel like maybe it's a bit heavy handed. (snip)
Chris Pramas has a really unfortunate habit of using the "if you disagree with me then #$%^ you" formula to make his points. Personally I find it rankles (a lot), even when I'm in full agreement with what he's saying.
 
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Mishihari Lord

First Post
Nice of them to let know they're making the game to push their social agenda. It's hard enough to make a fun game when making a fun game is your main priority. Relegate that to second priority and your chances of coming up with a good game are remote. So pass, don't think I need to even give this one a look.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Nice of them to let know they're making the game to push their social agenda. It's hard enough to make a fun game when making a fun game is your main priority. Relegate that to second priority and your chances of coming up with a good game are remote. So pass, don't think I need to even give this one a look.

There is nothing wrong with expressing yourself via the art you create. It's an ancient, ages-old thing, and perfectly acceptable. Disagree with what they're expressing if you wish, but implying that they're somehow wrong to express themselves via their art is just unfair, and phrases like "nice of them to let know they're making the game to push their social agenda" are just snotty. And make no mistake, game design is art, and one of the fundamental properties of art is expression. It is utterly appropriate that a game designer use that medium to express themself.

If you're not interested, that's fine. Go find a thing you are interested in! BUt for me, it would be a sad world in which people didn't express themselves through their art. Art is good when it says something.
 
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KirayaTiDrekan

Adventurer
Regarding the cynical comments about political agendas and, "But RPGs are already inclusive, no need to advertise it."

That's why we need it. That's why it needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

Because without Green Ronin setting the example, both in 2005 and now, D&D 5E and other games would not have progressed in the ways that they have regarding inclusivity.
 

dm4hire

Explorer
I also hope this wasn't their big announcement for the AGE system. Blue Rose is a nice setting, but it doesn't seem like that big news. I own all the books and still run into several people that when they see the books in a store are unaware it has been around for awhile. It wasn't that big of a game when it first came out.
 

pedr

Explorer
On Twitter earlier today, Jack Norris said "Big GreenRoninPub announcement coming. Note: this isn't the "possibly biggest of the year" one we talked about earlier. But its big."

So that's still on track to be my predicted Tabletop RPG show to use AGE announcement ;)
 


DM Howard

Explorer
I always liked the idea of Blue Rose, my friend has all the books, but we've never actually played it. Happy to see it getting some attention.
 

Regarding the cynical comments about political agendas and, "But RPGs are already inclusive, no need to advertise it."

I have the original game, and because of it, I got the True20 system. The introduction of the game gives a pretty good description of the genre its trying to emulate. Hey, why not? Those books had their fans, and certainly we saw plenty of games around works of specific writers and sub-genres.

RPGs aren't inclusive or non-inclusive; they are systems often with some embedded campaign elements. The campaign & its setting is where you get it. Anyone can make any version of D&D inclusive if they want to, and likewise, anyone can beat the nutritional value out of Blue Rose if they want to. The embedded campaign in the Blue Rose RPG (I don't have the later books) certainly has inclusive elements in it. But I think you'll find that people were running inclusive campaigns well before that. A friend of mine ran such a campaign in 1981 using Dragonquest.

The game doesn't rub me the wrong way, but touting a game as "better than XXX for its inclusiveness" rubs many people the wrong way - and I don't think they are entirely wrong to feel that way. Its much like the story games vs rpgs argument. Along with the message that its a game worth playing, someone wraps that in a message that its superior to whatever you were doing before, and not liking that makes you a backwards neanderthal hater.

When I heard Blue Rose was coming back, my first thought was okay, cool, why not. After reading Chris' blog entry, I lost interest. I wouldn't say no if someone offered to run the game. I don't find the embedded setting unattractive. But the message that this game is being embedded into runs contrary to a simple, but effective principle:

Don't pick yourself up by pushing others down.
 


KirayaTiDrekan

Adventurer
That's the thing about inclusivity, though. The straight, white, cisgender, male gamer doesn't ever worry about being included, about being represented. He knows that the game defaults to him and takes it for granted. Seeing a game make an effort, indeed make it a point, to include folks other than that "default" means we get to feel acknowledged.

For people who are used to being invisible at best, hated at worst, having a game say, "Hey, you exist and are valued," is so incredibly important that its hard to express. It is, therefore, likewise important, that Green Ronin and other companies be vocal about taking that stand.

Being inclusive and being vocal about it is not, in any way, pushing anyone down. It is saying, "Hey, we want everyone to have an equal space at the game table."
 

Ace

Adventurer
That's the thing about inclusivity, though. The straight, white, cisgender, male gamer doesn't ever worry about being included, about being represented. He knows that the game defaults to him and takes it for granted. Seeing a game make an effort, indeed make it a point, to include folks other than that "default" means we get to feel acknowledged.

For people who are used to being invisible at best, hated at worst, having a game say, "Hey, you exist and are valued," is so incredibly important that its hard to express. It is, therefore, likewise important, that Green Ronin and other companies be vocal about taking that stand.

Being inclusive and being vocal about it is not, in any way, pushing anyone down. It is saying, "Hey, we want everyone to have an equal space at the game table."

For clarity , this isn't about marketing but social policy, From a market POV s assuming anyone else need to care about "others" is inaccurate they really don't as gaming has and tabletop RPG's will continue to do well as a somewhat conservative White Middle/working Class Heterosexual Cis Gendered Male pastime for High IQ Geeks right where they started. Its about 20% female now as well at least as of 2000 or so. From the Escapist Unless there was a huge influx from the LGBT communities I don't think gaming would even notice since the LGBT community itself isn't very large, maybe twice the size of D&D players in the US and most aren't geeks AFAIK

If saleswas the issue than Hispanic, Asian and Black outreach makes much more sense. That's nearly 50% of the young people now vs maybe 4% for LGBT

That said I don't see games that address issues of otherness whether they be Blue Rose or Wraeththu or even Furry centric games in a respectful and quality way are a bad thing. I think they are a good thing in general and games like Blue Rose being masterfully written manages to breach the boundaries and appeal to several communities, I like this . I also think the iconic Pathfinder Shaman being Transgendered was pretty cool, its a unique way to address something the authors cared about and done in a very clever way with some historical precedent.

Under no circumstances should anyone take this as anti "other" post either I've had gaymers in my group and bi folks as well and they are perfectly welcome, bigotry isn't welcome since it takes away fun and I've never had a group that is that uptight. For most us its grab some dice and lets play. As an aside most have ever seen transfolk in gaming though we do have them in our community (Jannell formerly Paul Jaquays) of course. Transfolk are after all less than that about 700,000 in the entire US, about 1/2 of 1% of adults and in fact there are more Roma (1 million or so) and most people have never seen any of them either. Hopefully either of these groups can be portrayed with respect when they are used in games. Maybe good games can have that benefit with going Starbucks on us . Heck as long as no one pulls another piece of drek like World of Darkness Gypsies I'll be happy

I've noticed that most gamers are pretty tolerant and their is plenty of room in the hobby for all kind of views as, I've had groups of 100% BDSM people and that about as .alt as you can get. Whatever movement to inclusiveness is pretty welcome since gaming being what it is can create its own spaces that suit each group needs which is all anyone can ask for. Nobody gets in anyone else's space, the tolerant have spaces, the people needing safe spaces haven and them the trads and such have theirs too. The only real issue might be conventions but that happily I don't have to deal with.

On a personal note I also hope that people with other views take advantage of the low cost of entry to create cool stuff with independent views for themselves and when possible everyone. This is good for our community and while we are a creative lot sometimes we trod the same paths too much. I like these paths and I think most people do and vote with their wallet but good new ideas are good for the community .

Its not easy to do, even Lou Porter' abortion themed D20 Choice and Blood was no hit , no ones cuppa apparently but it had value as can Blue Rose.
 
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I think it's very fortunate that nobody has said that, then! :)

I thought with the XXX it was clear the quotes were there for paraphrasing or emphasis rather than an actual, direct quote but Ill know better next time ;-)

Injecting a moral high ground into the message is one way to do just that. And to reiterate, while I don't see that moral high ground in the first edition of the RPG, going out of your way to bring back the game with the message seems (sorry for my cynicism) as opportunistic as anything else.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I thought with the XXX it was clear the quotes were there for paraphrasing or emphasis rather than an actual, direct quote but Ill know better next time

It's more that you're injecting entire things which aren't there and attributing them to people who didn't say them - and then castigating them for saying the things you yourself created. Nobody claimed their game was better than anybody else's, let alone for the reasons you ... errr ... "paraphrase". I think that's just in your head; it's certainly not on that page, either explicitly or implicitly.
 

That's the thing about inclusivity, though. The straight, white, cisgender, male gamer doesn't ever worry about being included, about being represented. He knows that the game defaults to him and takes it for granted. Seeing a game make an effort, indeed make it a point, to include folks other than that "default" means we get to feel acknowledged.

Please do not reduce people of a race/gender/sexual orientation into a stereotype, even for a frame of reference.

Being inclusive and being vocal about it is not, in any way, pushing anyone down. It is saying, "Hey, we want everyone to have an equal space at the game table."

In itself, I agree that it need not push anyone down, so long as the language used doesn't create a new frame of reference that places other games or players of other games in a negative light to differentiate itself. Do you agree?

The setting (as I perceived it from the first edition) is inclusive. Some players are uncomfortable playing characters with a significantly different world view than themselves, but not all players.
 

KirayaTiDrekan

Adventurer
Please do not reduce people of a race/gender/sexual orientation into a stereotype, even for a frame of reference.



In itself, I agree that it need not push anyone down, so long as the language used doesn't create a new frame of reference that places other games or players of other games in a negative light to differentiate itself. Do you agree?

The setting (as I perceived it from the first edition) is inclusive. Some players are uncomfortable playing characters with a significantly different world view than themselves, but not all players.

Its not a stereotype in this instance, its a demographic. A stereotype would be assigning a personality trait to the straight, white, male, cisgender gamer. Plenty of non-gamers do that on a regular basis; no need to perpetuate it here.

Other companies and players and games need to have a negative light shone on them if they are indulging in negative stereotypes, bigotry, or discrimination. That said Mr. Pramas does not disparage any company, group, player, or game in his statement. He doesn't make any accusations and he doesn't state that Blue Rose will be better at being inclusive than any other game, just that inclusivity is one of its primary goals. The implication of a "new frame of reference that places other games or players of other games in a negative light" is reading something between the lines that isn't there. Posthuman Studios, Paizo, Wizards of the Coast - all have made public and vocal steps toward inclusivity. Green Ronin is simply emphasizing the point, so to speak, not placing itself above.

If a player is uncomfortable with the content of Blue Rose, they don't have to play it. However, demeaning it and those who do want to play it and arguing against its existence is a step beyond that. Its a step that says, "Not only am I uncomfortable playing characters with a significantly different world view, I'm uncomfortable with acknowledging that those world views exist in my space."
 

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