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Bluff Check, Feinting in Combat, and Rogues

Al said:
Well, kreynolds is right. An average fighter vs. an average rogue, the fighter decimates the rogue every time. Let's take two examples- in each we'll assume that the rogue tries to bluff the fighter, then attacks, etc.

Level 1:
Fighter stats: 15 13 14 10 12 8 (iconic fighter), equipment Scale Mail, Large Shield, Longsword, AC 17, Feats Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, Power Attack.
Atk +3, damage d8+2. Hps 12.
Rogue stats: 12 15 10 14 8 13 (putting 13 in charisma to aid bluffing potential, otherwise iconic rogue). Equipment: Rapier, Studded Leather, AC 16 (including Dodge). Atk +1, damage d6+1; Feats: Improved Initiative, Dodge. Rogue has 6hps.

Round 1: Assume rogue wins initiative. Attack fighter, chance to hit=30%, average damage on hit (2d6+1) =8. Therefore, average damage is 2.4. FIghter has 9.6 hps remaining
Fighter attacks next. Chance to hit= 45%, average damage on hit is (d8+2)=6.5. Average damage is just over 2.5. Therefore, even when the rogue is sneak attacking, fighter does more damage AND since rogue has fewer hps, rogue will invariably lose (his going first reduces the fighter to 9.6, still commensurately more than his mere 6). NB The rogue has the same average chance to get a critical- his threat range is larger, but his confirmation range is smaller, so it balances out.

Level 10:
Fighter stats: 17(19) 13 14 10 12 8, equipment +2 Full-Plate, +2 Amulet of NA, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Longsword, +2 Large Shield. AC 28. Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Improved Crit, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Expert Tactician, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Death Blow. Atk +17/+12, damage d8+8 (average 12.5). HPs 80.5.
Rogue stats: 12 17(19) 10 14 8 13, equipment +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, +2 Amulet of NA, +2 Ring of Protection, +2 Rapier, +2 Mithral Buckler. AC 28 (including Dodge). Feats: Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Quicker than the Eye. Atk +10/+5, damage d6+3 (average 6.5, or 23 if sneak attacking). HPs 38
Round 1: Assume rogue wins initiative. Attacks flat-footed fighter, chance to hit=20%, average damage on hit is 23, therefore average damage is 4.6. Fighter then uses full-attack, chances to hit= 50%, 25%, average damge on hit=12.5. Therefore, average damage is around 8.5 (more than the rogue by quite a margin). The rogue has now the option of bluffing as an MEA (QttE) and then attacking, in which case he will lose (fighter does more average damage AND has more HPs) or spring attacking (can more further). However, this doesn't help. His average damage dealt drops to 20% of 6.5, a mere 1.3hps, and the fighter can simply charge him to make up the difference. Ergo, the rogue loses.

I couldn't be bothered to do a top-level example, it would take too long, but these two illustrate the case adequately: a fighter vs. a rogue of equivalent level will win unless the rogue has incredible luck.

In both cases the Rogue would have backup (the rest of the party) and he would have gotten away after his first Sneak Attack. Maybe your Rogues stand toe-to-toe with Fighters but mine hit and run.
 

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Al said:
Well, kreynolds is right.

Funny, I never said a Rogue could stand up to a Fighter in a normal combat. I used an example of how the Rogue could Bluff/Sneak Attack and possibly get away or help out party members with the damage totals. Do you all play solo campaigns?
 

A fighter might fall for it once. But the second time he'll probably make sure the rogue really is down. (Kick him in the head to see if he make a reaction or something like that) Maybe use an AoO on the rogue.
 
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Bonedagger said:
A fighter might fall for it once. But the second time he'll probably make sure the rogue really is down. (Kick him in the head to see if he make a reaction or something like that) Maybe use an AoO on the rogue.

Once is all a Rogue should need. As a Rogue, I would quickly remove my person from the situation and let my party chime in.
 

Bonedagger said:
A fighter might fall for it once. But the second time he'll probably make sure the rogue really is down. (Kick him in the head to see if he make a reaction or something like that)

Feint. Not faint. :D
 



Public service annoucement ;)

I split off the OT bickering - and the OT posts replying to it - into a thread of its own. :cool:
Also, please keep that kind of thing to e-mail next time.

Thanks! :)

- Darkness
 


Are there any other good feats that work well with the combat reflexes, expert tactitican, quicker than the eye for enhancing? I'm about to start a rogue/fighter with combat reflexes with an eye for expert tactician by 3rd level. Improved initiative is high on my list of priorities. I plan on using a reach weapon to help the combat reflexes kick in.

Any other good ideas/uses?
 

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