[Bo9S] Notes on swordsage in play

[jasin]

Not directly related to Padma, but a question that might be interesting to anyone watching this thread: why is ghost blade (6th, strike, attack opponent's flat-footed AC) so high in level, especially compared to emerald razor (2nd, strike, attack opponent's touch AC) and cloak of deception (2nd, boost, become invisible)?

I mean, I can see situations where ghost blade would be better: high-Dex, low-armour opponents who can see invisible or have uncanny dodge or Blind-Fight. But is that going to come up often enough to justify choosing GB over other 6th-level maneuvers?

 

[hong]

Not directly related to Padma, but a question that might be interesting to anyone watching this thread: why is ghost blade (6th, strike, attack opponent's flat-footed AC) so high in level, especially compared to emerald razor (2nd, strike, attack opponent's touch AC) and cloak of deception (2nd, boost, become invisible)?

I mean, I can see situations where ghost blade would be better: high-Dex, low-armour opponents who can see invisible or have uncanny dodge or Blind-Fight. But is that going to come up often enough to justify choosing GB over other 6th-level maneuvers?

Well, ghost blade brings sneak attack/sudden strike into play... but then so does cloak of deception. And in fact, uncanny dodge would also protect against ghost blade, since you treat the target as flat-footed. Yeah, the levels look a bit messed up.

 

[hong]

Yes! That's one of the things I liked about the XPsiHB, actually, how the bonus damage and touch attack psionic feats (Psionic Weapon and... something with a fancier name) let you create a swordsman who uses concentration to strike deadly blows (which is a pretty good description of an iaijutsu duelist, at least a fictional OA one).

And diamond mind is like that, only better. And swordsages even get an initiative bonus!

The quote from Hero is appropriate: "how swift thy sword".

... or maybe, depending on the campaign: "in kung fu, speed is everything". Ie, the one from Kung Fu Hustle.

OK, yes, when both sides have the 200 hp in one hit thing down, initiative is the next most important number, an an iaijutsu master is hard to beat there.

I just looked up OA, actually, and it's a bit ambiguous whether you get the Iaijutsu Focus damage with both attacks from 1S2C. The skill description says "if you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon"; is the second attack considered to happen immediately after drawing the weapon?

But then the sidebar on "Iaijutsu strikes in normal combat" (p.82) just says "when you are attacking a flat-footed opponent and you draw your weapon in the same round you strike", so maybe I'm splitting hairs.

What would happen if it was a formal duel as opposed to normal combat?

But you're sure as hell trying! How'd you get +18 init? +6 Dex, +4 Imporoved Initiative, +4 quick to act... what am I missing?

Edit: OK, found the +4 from the spirit-possessed sword.

The Imp Init is mostly for pose value. Or maybe not... I still get all twitchy over the episode of the halfling accountant in Geoff's last game.

 

[jasin]

I just looked up OA, actually, and it's a bit ambiguous whether you get the Iaijutsu Focus damage with both attacks from 1S2C. The skill description says "if you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon"; is the second attack considered to happen immediately after drawing the weapon?

When I played my iaijutsu master, we ruled that you only got iaijutsu damage on the first attack. But then, those were more innocent times, when a fighter dealing 50+ damage in a single hit not once but twice before the other guy even got to act, was deemed quite impressive and/or suspicious.

The Imp Init is mostly for pose value.

Well, when you've got an attack that can kill many enemies outright, going before they get to do something similar to you ends up being more than pose, I think.

Or maybe not... I still get all twitchy over the episode of the halfling accountant in Geoff's last game.

This sounds familiar, but I can't quite place it. Have I heard about this already? Was sadism or masochism involved somehow?

 

[hong]

When I played my iaijutsu master, we ruled that you only got iaijutsu damage on the first attack. But then, those were more innocent times, when a fighter dealing 50+ damage in a single hit not once but twice before the other guy even got to act, was deemed quite impressive and/or suspicious.

Hm. Well, if 1S2C only allows Iai Focus dice on the 1st attack, that's still 2x wpn damage +9d6+99, which is ~165 + 2 Con, or 185 against a 20th level character. That's slightly less than an even chance of killing Padma outright in the surprise round, if both attacks hit. Not quite as overwhelming as before, but I'd still lay good odds on Lianne.

Basically, you don't want to start a fight within melee range of an iaijutsu master, but I think we knew that already.


Edit: Lianne is here for those who want to check out Jasin's twink-fu.

Well, when you've got an attack that can kill many enemies outright, going before they get to do something similar to you ends up being more than pose, I think.

It's more that nothing we've fought has had an init bonus close to +14, let alone +18. But what the heck, it's cool being able to roleplay waiting for everyone else to catch up.

This sounds familiar, but I can't quite place it. Have I heard about this already? Was sadism or masochism involved somehow?

Yep. Geoff gave her the sadism spell from BoVD, but misread it so that it gave a bonus to damage as well as attacks.

Ugly. Very ugly.

 

[hong]

So, we fought Dragotha today.

Kung fu dragon.

More later.

 

[Nifft]

Kung fu dragon.

I feel the need for details.

Thanks, -- N

 

[kibbitz]

Wow. Even without 3.5E (I only own corebooks for 3.0), between you and jasin (and that thread with Lianne), I'm almost ready to go out tomorrow morning and place an order for Bo9S. Will wait eagerly for your experience with Dragotha.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

Overall, is the swordsage broken? Going from my (limited) experience, I'd say not, although it does have the opportunity to grab the spotlight now and then. Is it powerful? Your answer to that will probably match your answer to the question of whether the monk is powerful, since there's so many similarities between the two classes. I'll note that in this particular session though, the other players ended up labelling the character as a tertiary combatant, not even a secondary combatant. Maybe I'll swop her out for a warblade next session.

I don't think the Swordsage is anywhere near broken (mostly for the same reasons you cite), although I certainly find the class intriguing/viable. IME, the Warblade is nigh on the most powerful 20-level class ever printed in official material, but I wouldn't really even consider that class worthy of the term "broken" (close, maybe, with the right build, but not uncheckable). Even if it were, we all own stock in Nerf.

Personally, I really like the gestalt implications of the Swordsage. I'm running a campaign where an ancient vampire is "recruiting" gestalt characters for their exceptional abilities. I can't wait to send the Githzerai vampire Swashbuckler/Swordsages (gestalt) after the party... yummy.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

Wow. Even without 3.5E (I only own corebooks for 3.0), between you and jasin (and that thread with Lianne), I'm almost ready to go out tomorrow morning and place an order for Bo9S. Will wait eagerly for your experience with Dragotha.

Do it. The book is freaking awesome.