[Bo9S] Notes on swordsage in play

[RigaMortus2]

You are, of course, correct. I should have said "... means you can effectively recover ..."

Thanks, -- N

I've spoken with my people, and we agree that this would be an acceptable way to put it

You are effectively recovering all your maneuvers. The only reason I like to make the distinction is that when people look it up, and they don't see any mention of the word "recover" in Adaptive Style, or any mention of the Adaptive Style feat in the Recovery section, it can cause miscommunication.

 

[Nail]

Thanks for the info, hong. Play experience is key to evaluating some of the abilities of a class.

Some abilities, of course, can be evaluated without play experience. Like that wacky d12 HD for a WB.

 

[satori01]

Some Pretty Nice stats there Hong!. I've found the Swordsage to be a fairly balanced class. I DM for one that is 15th level and 3rd Level.

The Swordsage has not been at neither level the dominant combatant.
Manuever selection can play a key role in how the Swordsage plays.

The 15th level Swordsage/Master of Nine seems to be primarily focused on the Burning Wind and Devoted Spirit chain. I do know that he chose a maneuver from every school to maximize the bonus from Master of Nine. Even with that, I can not say he out damaged any of the other warrior combatants.

Where the Swordsage did prove useful was in the Tactical Arena.
The battle was a gigantic affair, played over 3 real days, probably a total of 18 hours on a single battle. The healing power of Devoted Spirit coupled with the ranged and Flaming Square powers of Burning Wind, coupled with Evasion, and some of the defensive swift DR granting powers of Stone Dragon School, and the character was pretty durable, despite having lesser HP.

In all a nice team player, however the Swordsage depends upon the player to utilize the correct power at the correct time, and like a sorcerer that has the wrong spells known in a circumstance, can be little more than an observer.

The 3rd level Swordsage seems to be specializing in Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon Maneuvers, which are proving to be especially useful. The Shadow Hand stance that grants you concealment after moving 10' is particularly useful, especially when conjoined with the Stone Dragon boost that gives DR 5- for one round.

Allows a sneaky character to saunter up, strike, and survive the barrage that will come after the hit.

 

[Mort]

Thanks for the info, hong. Play experience is key to evaluating some of the abilities of a class.

Some abilities, of course, can be evaluated without play experience. Like that wacky d12 HD for a WB.

I wouldn't say that.
The warblade has absolutely no range capability they have to get up close and hit stuff; that coupled with medium armor (and medium armor can impact some of their manuevers) really hurts. When I DM'd a 5th level warblade he needed every bit of that d12 hit die just to stay up. Plus becuase of MAD his damage dealing was nowhere near what I've seen barbarians capable of. So the d12 HD did not seem the least bit much.
Line him up with the crusader (d10 hit die) and he comes up short because the crusader is constantly healing the damage he takes and dishing out a ton with furious counterstrike etc.

The swordsage in the group was pretty good, the stance that helps with flanking (Island of blades I think, don't have the books with me) was a great party aid. He would have been more effective if he'd rolled above a 4 to hit in 3 separate fights though.

 

[blargney the second]

Overall, is the swordsage broken? Going from my (limited) experience, I'd say not, although it does have the opportunity to grab the spotlight now and then.

Any class that can grab the spotlight now and then is all right by me.
-blarg

 

[hong]

In all a nice team player, however the Swordsage depends upon the player to utilize the correct power at the correct time, and like a sorcerer that has the wrong spells known in a circumstance, can be little more than an observer.

Tell me about it.

The 3rd level Swordsage seems to be specializing in Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon Maneuvers, which are proving to be especially useful. The Shadow Hand stance that grants you concealment after moving 10' is particularly useful, especially when conjoined with the Stone Dragon boost that gives DR 5- for one round.

Allows a sneaky character to saunter up, strike, and survive the barrage that will come after the hit.

If you mean the various Stone Dragon stances that grant DR, combining them with Child of Shadow seems problematic. The former stop working if you move more than 5', while the latter requires you to move 10' or more. I guess you could work around this by carefully declaring when you move and when you change stances each round, but the intent certainly seems to be that they depend on entirely opposite things.

 

[hong]

I wouldn't say that.
The warblade has absolutely no range capability they have to get up close and hit stuff; that coupled with medium armor (and medium armor can impact some of their manuevers) really hurts.

Not having range capability really doesn't mean a lot. Even if they did have proficiency with missile weapons, all of their maneuvers are still tied into melee, and they're going to have a twinked-out sword as opposed to a twinked-out bow. They're still going to be vastly more dangerous in close than far away. It's much the same with any build: you're always much more competent in your chosen specialty compared to other things you could do.

Medium armour only is possibly more limiting, but even then mithral full plate is cheap at high levels.

 

[Krafen]

If you mean the various Stone Dragon stances that grant DR, combining them with Child of Shadow seems problematic. The former stop working if you move more than 5', while the latter requires you to move 10' or more. I guess you could work around this by carefully declaring when you move and when you change stances each round, but the intent certainly seems to be that they depend on entirely opposite things.

The only Stone Dragon manuevers I know of that grant DR are strikes that grant DR x/adamantine for 1 round if you hit with the strike. The only stance I know of that offers DR is Supreme Blade Parry (Iron Heart 8).

 

[Mort]

Not having range capability really doesn't mean a lot. Even if they did have proficiency with missile weapons, all of their maneuvers are still tied into melee, and they're going to have a twinked-out sword as opposed to a twinked-out bow. They're still going to be vastly more dangerous in close than far away. It's much the same with any build: you're always much more competent in your chosen specialty compared to other things you could do.

That's absolutely true, but the point is you are limited to a melee build without any real choice. Next you are not likely to have a huge AC - as a matter of fact a good number of stances and manuevers actually decrease your AC, so you're going to get pounded while in melee (unlike a fighter where you can choose defense over offense, the warblade is almost pure offense, yes there are some defensive manuevers but they are not that prevalent). I've just noticed that the warblade will get pounded, and unlike the crusader can't do much about it.

Medium armour only is possibly more limiting, but even then mithral full plate is cheap at high levels.

Again true but:

1) Depending on build, full plate (or any med-heavy armor), even mithral will not be practical - Anything having to do with tiger claw or the more move oriented Diamond Mind builds will not sync well with any confining armor - even mithral.

2) I get tired of all mithral, all the time as I'm sure many DM's do- sometimes it's just not going to be available to the players (even high level ones) easily.

Point is the d12 seems to balance out in play with how much damage the warblade takes while doing his schtick.

 

[hong]

The only Stone Dragon manuevers I know of that grant DR are strikes that grant DR x/adamantine for 1 round if you hit with the strike. The only stance I know of that offers DR is Supreme Blade Parry (Iron Heart 8).

Oops, I got mixed up.