Bo9S
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Arkhandus
First Post
I don't think there is any errata for the Book of Nine Swords. Mainly cuz I think WotC stopped bothering with fixing their own rules snafus once they determined that they'd be announcing 4E this year at GenCon. 
Mogg: Y'know that 4E is being at least moderately based on the kind of per-encounter stuff that was prominant in the Book of Nine Swords, right?
Though I'm not sure if your problem with it is that it's too pseudo-anime/wuxia style, or instead the per-encounter mechanics.
Mogg: Y'know that 4E is being at least moderately based on the kind of per-encounter stuff that was prominant in the Book of Nine Swords, right?
Though I'm not sure if your problem with it is that it's too pseudo-anime/wuxia style, or instead the per-encounter mechanics.
ivocaliban
Explorer
Arkhandus said:I don't think there is any errata for the Book of Nine Swords. Mainly cuz I think WotC stopped bothering with fixing their own rules snafus once they determined that they'd be announcing 4E this year at GenCon.
indeed!
Moggthegob
First Post
The style of game that people were touting was very I want to say immature. Like either that they were gaga abotu the over the top stuff that made the game very anime style and the kinda completely non-realistic uber high fantasy style which i am no fan of or abusing the living hell out of the per encounter stuff in true munchkin style.
I did see it attempted once with no eye toward abusing it and the character in question was indestructible, could deal mroe damagfe than anyone else onthe party and had enough status effects to render all but the cleric worthless. It was not fun for anyone becus it was no longer a team game that we like to play.
Also the per encounter stuff did wind up having some cheesy ramifications and the ability to recycle "per encounter" stuff struck me as really cheesy. I also found it needlessly slowed down the gmae as the party kept stopping for the fighter types ot look up their maneuvers. Which for us is aproblem cus teh guy who plays the fighter is usually the guy who couldnt handle book-keeping of being the wizard or the cleric.
At best noone was paying attention to what was going on i nthe combat because everyone was looking up what their stuff did. At worst com,bat ground to halt. Honestly even gappling took less time and effort than it.
All in all, my troubles with the book are making me very cautious about 4th ed.
I did see it attempted once with no eye toward abusing it and the character in question was indestructible, could deal mroe damagfe than anyone else onthe party and had enough status effects to render all but the cleric worthless. It was not fun for anyone becus it was no longer a team game that we like to play.
Also the per encounter stuff did wind up having some cheesy ramifications and the ability to recycle "per encounter" stuff struck me as really cheesy. I also found it needlessly slowed down the gmae as the party kept stopping for the fighter types ot look up their maneuvers. Which for us is aproblem cus teh guy who plays the fighter is usually the guy who couldnt handle book-keeping of being the wizard or the cleric.
At best noone was paying attention to what was going on i nthe combat because everyone was looking up what their stuff did. At worst com,bat ground to halt. Honestly even gappling took less time and effort than it.
All in all, my troubles with the book are making me very cautious about 4th ed.
Asmor said:
They Might Be Giants are awesome.
On another note, I haven't found fighters to be weaker than any of the other core classes. Perhaps the problems begin when you bring in classes from other books (also note that I have more books than anyone else in my gaming group, but I haven't had an opportunity to use any of the extra classes. I don't have any first-hand play experience to base this observation on).
Moggthegob
First Post
To be honest the fighter still shines compared to the hexblade,the swashbuckler, the warlock, the Samurai, the ranger, the monk, the Dragon Shaman and the Duskblade and warmage. in most or almost all ways at being a fighter(tank/cork/damage). ToB changed that and in a way I found to be quite negative.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Oh my god no.GAAAHHH said:
The "problem" is that the Cleric and Druid are awesome, and the Barbarian can deal fantastic damage.
Seriously, a Druid's 1st level animal companion (a riding dog, for example) can out fight a 1st level Fighter. Some Fighter builds can remain useful (e.g. spike chain trip monkey), but for most purposes, MOST EMPHATICALLY including dealing melee damage, a Fighter is inferior to a Barbarian, Cleric, or Druid.
Fighter 20: "I spent 4 feats to get +2 to attack, and +4 damage (with my chosen weapon)! Also, I spent 6 feats to get a +4 bonus to Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Sunder and Disarm checks!"
Barbarian 20: "I get +4 to attack and +6 damage with any two-handed weapon (before feats), and a +4 bonus to all those checks too (before feats). But I can only handle six fights per day."
Fighter 20 with splatbooks: "Hey, Barbarian! I caught up to your damage output thanks to Melee Weapon Mastery (PHB-II)! Also, I have a feat that gives me DR 2/-- with my chosen armor (PHB-II)!"
Barbarian 20 with splatbooks: "I had DR 5/-- already (from Core), but now I can Pounce (Complete Champion)."
Cheers, -- N
Arkhandus
First Post
GAAAHHH......methinks you've never seen a mid-to-high-level Fighter alongside a Cleric or Druid buffed up for melee then?
Today's session in my Land of Nine Swords side-campaign was brutal...... For reference, I'm using 3.0 rules but also including the Bo9S and allowing one PC to use the Nature Warrior prestige class from Complete Warrior, since he wanted to do a lot of Wild Shaping.
The swordsage 7/sorcerer 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 1 (Exavier) and the druid 9/nature warrior 3 (......Wiz Kid. Don't ask, the player is a kid, and I try not to harass players for coming up with silly names) confronted a Frost Worm, then were challenged by Zief, an opportunistic swordsage 6/warblade 6 who wanted to take advantage of their supposedly-weakened state. The PCs are traveling through northern lands near winter, so it's a fitting place for Frost Worms and for the druid's polar bears.
The Frost Worm lasted about 4 turns, despite having more HP than either PC..... Exavier botched a Ruby Nightmare Blade with Searing Blade thanks to a natural 1, but on subsequent rounds dealt out a decent string of attacks with Insightful Strike and some full-attacks (using his Arcane Wrath from JPM to expend spell slots for an attack and damage bonus). Exavier's focusing on his swordsage levels, so he won't be taking much else in the way of Jade Phoenix Mage levels.
'Wiz Kid' just hung back and Flame Striked the Frost Worm two or three times (the worm made its save each time, elsewise the fight would've ended in round 2), while his two polar bear animal companions mauled it in melee. The Frost Worm managed to stun him and one bear with its Trill, but only for 1 round before it had to stop trilling while trying to devour Exavier and failing. It did manage to moderately wound Wiz Kid and seriously wound both bears, with its breath weapon, but that was all.
When Zief jumped down from a nearby tree afterward and challenged Exavier, the fight dragged on for a while before Zief was killed by the polar bears.
Zief and Exavier traded Strikes and full-attacks for several rounds, both me and Exavier's player rolling terrible strings of 2s, 4s, 7s, and 8s for attack rolls, and since both were high-AC swordsages, that generally resulted in lots of missing. Exavier hit with his first strike though, a well-placed Insightful Strike that dealt good damage. Zief hit a few rounds later, after many misses (including his attempt with Lightning Recovery), dealing a critical hit with Elder Mountain Hammer and a natural 20, giving back a little better than he got. But then the flurry of misses continued.
Until Exavier managed to hit two or three more times for less damage, thanks to his Arcane Wrath making the katana attacks more accurate, and then Wiz Kid decided to end the fight while Zief was only moderately injured and Exavier was only mildly injured (though Zief finally managed to succeed with one Strength Draining Strike). Wiz Kid summoned an earth elemental and two wolves, ordering his polar bears to attack Zief.
Zief chopped the earth elemental to pieces in one round since Exavier had backed up and cast Invisibility so he could safely use Adaptive Style again (in the interests of not making characters run out of steam after a few rounds, I'm adjudicating Adaptive Style as readying the maneuvers just the same as any other time, meaning they are ready for use, since it seems most logical).
Then the fight ended abruptly as Wiz Kid initiated his plan. Animal Growth on the polar bears and wolves. 2 Huge polar bears and 2 Large wolves mauled Zief and reduced him from around 60-odd HP to -15 or so in one round.
Last time, Wiz Kid wild shaped into a polar bear and joined his animal companions in mauling a band of orcish barbarians. Druids are scary.
Today's session in my Land of Nine Swords side-campaign was brutal...... For reference, I'm using 3.0 rules but also including the Bo9S and allowing one PC to use the Nature Warrior prestige class from Complete Warrior, since he wanted to do a lot of Wild Shaping.
The swordsage 7/sorcerer 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 1 (Exavier) and the druid 9/nature warrior 3 (......Wiz Kid. Don't ask, the player is a kid, and I try not to harass players for coming up with silly names) confronted a Frost Worm, then were challenged by Zief, an opportunistic swordsage 6/warblade 6 who wanted to take advantage of their supposedly-weakened state. The PCs are traveling through northern lands near winter, so it's a fitting place for Frost Worms and for the druid's polar bears.
The Frost Worm lasted about 4 turns, despite having more HP than either PC..... Exavier botched a Ruby Nightmare Blade with Searing Blade thanks to a natural 1, but on subsequent rounds dealt out a decent string of attacks with Insightful Strike and some full-attacks (using his Arcane Wrath from JPM to expend spell slots for an attack and damage bonus). Exavier's focusing on his swordsage levels, so he won't be taking much else in the way of Jade Phoenix Mage levels.
'Wiz Kid' just hung back and Flame Striked the Frost Worm two or three times (the worm made its save each time, elsewise the fight would've ended in round 2), while his two polar bear animal companions mauled it in melee. The Frost Worm managed to stun him and one bear with its Trill, but only for 1 round before it had to stop trilling while trying to devour Exavier and failing. It did manage to moderately wound Wiz Kid and seriously wound both bears, with its breath weapon, but that was all.
When Zief jumped down from a nearby tree afterward and challenged Exavier, the fight dragged on for a while before Zief was killed by the polar bears.
Zief and Exavier traded Strikes and full-attacks for several rounds, both me and Exavier's player rolling terrible strings of 2s, 4s, 7s, and 8s for attack rolls, and since both were high-AC swordsages, that generally resulted in lots of missing. Exavier hit with his first strike though, a well-placed Insightful Strike that dealt good damage. Zief hit a few rounds later, after many misses (including his attempt with Lightning Recovery), dealing a critical hit with Elder Mountain Hammer and a natural 20, giving back a little better than he got. But then the flurry of misses continued.
Until Exavier managed to hit two or three more times for less damage, thanks to his Arcane Wrath making the katana attacks more accurate, and then Wiz Kid decided to end the fight while Zief was only moderately injured and Exavier was only mildly injured (though Zief finally managed to succeed with one Strength Draining Strike). Wiz Kid summoned an earth elemental and two wolves, ordering his polar bears to attack Zief.
Zief chopped the earth elemental to pieces in one round since Exavier had backed up and cast Invisibility so he could safely use Adaptive Style again (in the interests of not making characters run out of steam after a few rounds, I'm adjudicating Adaptive Style as readying the maneuvers just the same as any other time, meaning they are ready for use, since it seems most logical).
Then the fight ended abruptly as Wiz Kid initiated his plan. Animal Growth on the polar bears and wolves. 2 Huge polar bears and 2 Large wolves mauled Zief and reduced him from around 60-odd HP to -15 or so in one round.
Last time, Wiz Kid wild shaped into a polar bear and joined his animal companions in mauling a band of orcish barbarians. Druids are scary.
Guys, guys do we really have to derail the thread in this fashion? I really wasn't looking for rants on why you don't like fighters or barbarians nor was I interested in blanket "I don't like B09S" statements either. I am looking for general advice for understanding the system and warnings about any manuvers, feats, and or class abilities that might be problematic and how best to fix them. The rest would be better off in another thread please.
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