Book of Vile Darkness

[Desdichado]

Kenjib and others have missed the point.

Actually, I think it quite likely that you've missed the point. See below.

Tolkien doesn't describe the corruption in graphic terms. He doesn't say 'to get orcs you sodomize elves and then scoop out their brains and replace them with the blood of a slain innocent.'

And the point you missed here is that you have no reason whatsoever to assume that the BoVD has this kind of information either. What you are posting is scandalous yellow journalism. Come back when you have some facts to discuss and not mindless pandering. We understand your point, but you're reacting to non-existent threats.

And, Furn, I thought you were being civil, but I guess I was mistaken. How do you know that I haven't written of this subject to Dragon and WOTC? You asked what I planned to accomplish here, and I told you. And, no, I don't believe in censorship (that's how we lost the New Adventures of Mighty Mouse), just a clearly defined line between the generic fantasy RPG of D&D and the 'mature' games like Vampire and certain d20 products. Notice that I haven't started a thread about Green Ronin? Because it's not a visible and persistent symbol of the RPG hobby.

Whatever. Or have you not noticed that both books will be right next to each other in most stores? Or that Dragon Magazine was giving away free copies of Legions of Hell with every subscription recently? These accusations you're making here are uninformed, inconsistent and vapid.

D&D is a high profile example of RPGs. It's market is larger than university kids and old D&D vets. Putting the D&D Logo on BoVD will damage the family oriented aspects of roleplaying and discourage parents from allowing their children, a vital source of new players, to participate. D&D is not mainstream enough to survive an attack by the media similar to the one aimed at computer games after Columbine. My belief that the release of this book is a marketing ploy is not a conspiracy theory, but the professional opinion of a Marketing person. History is full of examples of good things gone to pot over bad publicity (Mighty Mouse). Kenzer & Company's book is a good example of the book your looking for without all of the needless graphic exposition. A good storyteller doesn't need such exposition in the first place to create a mood.

I'll say it one more time although you've conveniently ignored it every time it's been said before: you have no idea how graphic the book is going to be. Monte himself on these very boards said that it's not going to be graphic and the purported topics like prostitution etc. are not going to be touched upon. Your professional marketing must be a bit shoddy if you think that the Book of Vile Darkness is a marketing ploy of the kind of describe, because it will not be getting press outside of the D&D community. The very idea of a massive public outcry to this book is absolutely absurd. It will never happen. Society doesn't care enough. The exposure of the game isn't big enough. And most of all, your projections of the actual content of the book are completely off base. Therefore, your professional marketing opinion doesn't have a leg to stand on. When you make up chicken-little scenarios about the apocalypse of our hobby and try to ascribe nefarious marketing suits with beady little eyes focused on short-term profits at the expense of the hobby as the culprits, that's what I call conspiracy theory.

 

[Ristamar]

I don't think it is a matter of the social slant of the media but how bored they are- last summer when nothing was going on: Shark Attacks and Chandra Levy ruled the air.

This summer it is child kidnapping- you would think it was an epidemic instead of a very sad standard state of affair.

If the media was bored when this book came out and it got their attention, they might make a big deal of it.

But- this is an election year, and the book comes out near poll times. The media has its toy. The politicians have other things to worry about this fall.

But, you never know!

FD

I won't say a media blitz on D&D after BoVD is impossible (and as I mentioned earlier, it'd have to be REALLY, REALLY bad), though I'd still be confident in saying the chances are slim to none. There's much bigger, juicier fish to fry: FPS's (Columbine and copycat incidents), flight sims (planes hitting the WTC), controversial movies and music, piracy, terrorism, and so on, just to name a few.

Also, D&D no longer equals satanism in the eyes of even the most conservative people. It just doesn't make a good story anymore, unless there is tragic results.

Even my local paper, which is fairly conservative, did a positive expose on 3e when it was released, and they printed the shot of Jozan holding forth his holy symbol against a succubus from the PHB. It was pretty cool.

At the very least, there would need to be some nutballs hacking at each other with replica swords or commiting a ritualistic murder or suicide with the BoVD in hand or nearby to resurrect the old fears and intolerance. Hopefully none of that will ever come to pass, both for the well being of others and the prosperity of the hobby itself.

 

[barsoomcore]

If it is, in fact, not aimed at the mainstream and will sell anyway, why advertise it in Dragon and Dungeon?

Um... because Dragon and Dungeon aren't "mainstream" magazines? They're only read by gamers -- and in fact only a small subset of those?

I don't get what you're trying to get at.

 

[Sammael99]

Furn asked what I to do? All I can do: voice my opinion and hope that others will do the same.

If an exec of WOTC is reading any of this, I hope that it will at least make him think twice about the release of this product under the D&D label and perhaps convince his bosses of the same. At the very least, I would like them to release it under some other label, in the same fashion White Wolf did with Black Dog, so the connection isn't so defined.

All the above is, of course, a point of view based on your opinion (even though I still think arguing about something you have not seen based on rumours is silly), but on this last comment, I must object :

In the end, though, I'm trying to nurture the hobby I love and protect it whilst introducing a more mainstream type of person into the wonderful world of heroic fantasy via the great grandaddy of RPGs.

It is my opinion that "mainstreeam" is never going to nurture the hobby. If anything, it is more liklely to kill it, like it has many niche hobbies.

Not that I believe RPGs will ever make it to mainstream. In an age when every media is struggling for their customers' attention spans, RPGs ask a commitment way too massive for most people out there.

So there are a few odd people in the hobby. Name me a hobby that doesn't have them ? Ours don't wash and are called geeks ? That's kind of a lesser evil, don't you think ?

I for one am happy for RPGing to stay at the level of popularity it has today. That way it can survive and not thrive, which means it will remain creative.

Concerning the issue of bad publicity, the only one I'm seeing so far on this virtually subversive RPG book is the one you're making. And I do believe that it's the only one we will ever see.

Anyone who wants to be offended by RPGs today and more specifically by D&D will find plenty to be offended about in the 3 Core Rulebooks. Scantily clad women abound in most game lines, including WOTC supported ones. Sacrifices and pacts with the devil are present in most horror flicks, books, etc. so it would hardly be a novelty for it to be featured in an RPG.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Just ask a certain Californian senator.

If you are referring to Condidit, then he is/was a house member. He is not a senator.

FD

 

[Siobharek]

Underhanded Son_of_Thunder

Son_of_Thunder, or "Sir Klysandral" on Monte's boards: One thing that hasn't been addressed yet. The info about how Monte felt while writing the book is taken WAY out of context. When on his boards, you didn't explain your motives or refer to this discussion. Instead you just asked him,

I don't know if this question has been asked of you as I'm too lazy to read all the posts, but here goes. What were your feelings while writing this book? Did you get ideas from movies? How was your relationship with people during this time?

I guess I'm just wondering what this time in your life was like. I remember one of my favorite Star Trek: The Next Generation episode was one where Riker was in a play as a crazy man, or something. Dr. Crusher encouraged him to explore his dark side. The whole episode was one of illusion and Riker doubting himself.

When he answered fair and square, you take that reply and use it further your sorry little opinions about what someone else feels:

Monte seems to have an unhealthy fascination with evil. On Monte's boards I asked him what his feelings were like while writing the book. His reply was that he had a tough time as it was dark subject matter.

It's pathetic, it's sad, and if it doesn't remove any credibility you might have had - for reasons that are beyond me - then I don't know what's wrong with the world. Everything we do in life reflects on us, someone said (in a film, but hey, it's true). You're just... <insert own epithet here>

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Re: Re: Monte Obsessed? I don't think so!

Speaking of wrong or ignorant, you're ignoring everything he wrote in the industry before the release of 3e.

Yeah, like Heroclix! Er..wait. I'll shut up now.

 

[Nathanael]

Sorry, Furn, meant to say congressman. A bit busy and distracted over here...

Con-did-it?

That's funny!

 

[Hakkenshi]

Out of curiosity, what WAS Monte's reply to the question? I don't hang around his boards.

 

[Desdichado]

Re: Re: Re: Monte Obsessed? I don't think so!

Yeah, like Heroclix! Er..wait. I'll shut up now.

I'm not trying to make Son of Thunder's point here, because I disagree with him, but Monte has written a lot of 2e stuff on hell and evil and the like, including Dead Gods, A Paladin in Hell, Hellbound: The Bloodwar and stuff. But he also wrote tons of stuff that has nothing whatsoever to do with evil really, so I think the whole thing is a silly accusation to make.

In fact, looking at my D&D book collection, you could probably make the same accusation. I still think it's silly, though.