Book of Vile Darkness

[the Jester]

Well, that is what I suggested.

I want the book distanced from the D&D brand name. Not censorship, telling you how to run your game or anything else I've been accused of. I just don't want it called D&D for many reasons for which I have already given much argument.

I feel that this would be an excellent middle ground on the subject...

But it IS dnd. Demogorgon, Asmodeus, et al and how you deal with them IS a topic in dnd, and those things have come up in many campaigns for YEARS, since 1e and longer in some cases!

My first devil-dealing issues in-game came about in 1986. In the 16 years since them I've NEVER ONCE seen any rules from tsr/wotc about the topic. My first torture in-game came about in prolly 1988... and again, there's NEVER been any coverage of torture rules in the official stuff ANYWHERE (except very brief treatment in a 1e DL module).

Calling it something other than dnd isn't middle ground, it's avoiding the subject... imho, of course.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I guess my lack of concern over the BOVD is that I don't really know if it's a great thing to be "mainstream". To me that says, "dumbed down for the average idiot". Look at what happens anytime a musical style goes mainstream. The innovators are copied by in a way that any idiot can enjoy it without having to think. If it remains a "niche" HOBBY that's fine with me.

 

[barsoomcore]

If it remains a "niche" hoppy that's fine with me.

Sorry, a niche hoppy? Now is that a decorative bunny that sits in an alcove or is that a brand of beer for some VERY specific demographic ("Technical Writer Ale!")?

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Believe it or not, it's possible to want to purchase the BoVD and still be a decent human being.

Like anyone named Buttercup could be anything but a dangero..err.. whats that noise.. ack..nooo!

*klump*

 

[Renshai]

Notice that I haven't started a thread about Green Ronin?

I still can't figure out what Green Ronin has published that would be called vile, or even close to being offensive in any way.

Nathanael, perhaps you are a little too conservative in your views on what should and shouldn't be published with the Dungeons and Dragons name on it. That of course is your right, but most people are not going to share your overly conservative view of what should and should not be published for D&D.

Publishing the Book of Vile Darkness really isn't different than publishing the Monster Manual, which contains Demons and Devils. If a conservative Soccer Mom is going to be offended by the Book of Vile Darkness, chances are she is going to be offended by the presence of Demons and Devils in the Monster Manual...

Personally, I think you are making a mountain out of mole-hill. (Before the mole-hill has even been built)

Ren

Off Topic, does anyone know when does the Tome of Horrors come out?

 

[Nightfall]

I guess my lack of concern over the BOVD is that I don't really know if it's a great thing to be "mainstream". To me that says, "dumbed down for the average idiot". Look at what happens anytime a musical style goes mainstream. The innovators are copied by in a way that any idiot can enjoy it without having to think. If it remains a "niche" hoppy that's fine with me.

Now that I can agree with. I mean let's face the music industry hasn't REALLY changed since the late 60s in terms of getting these "poppy" and "Fresh looking" faces that all they do is sing about love, broken hearts and cheating significant others. Mainstream doesn't necessarily make a product better. I still think it shows with things like Buffy and Lord of the Rings.

 

[Buttercup]

I'm sorry to bring up this potential bit of flamebait, but this entire discussion against the publication of Book of Vile Darkness smacks too much of censorship for me to be comfortable with it.

Amen, brother. Censorship is vile, in a way this book could never be.

 

[Ristamar]

Well, the MA rating I had in mind was from video games-

http://www.esrb.org/esrb_about.asp

It seems clear enough for me.

FD

Hehe. Those ESRB ratings are generally regarded as pretty vague and virtually worthless by the (video)gaming community.

Take a look at 3 video games with MA ratings (go to IGN or GameSpot for more info if you need it): Eternal Darkness, Grand Theft Auto 3, and BMX XXX (formerly Dave Mirra XXX). Now they are three wholly different games.

GTA 3: Guns, violence, cursing, theft, murder, prostitution, sexual content, etc.

BMX XXX: Nudity (topless strippers, topless female bike riders), sexual content, cursing, vulgar themes.

Eternal Darkness: No nudity or cursing (save for the rare use of 'damn' or 'hell'), yet it received an MA rating due to it's dark storyline, sacrifices, ritualistic magic, some gore, and violence (it's very Lovecraftian in nature).

Now, while they all have MA ratings, they're certainly 3 different types of 'maturity'.

Personally, if WotC wants to release mature products akin to Eternal Darkness (which seems to be the case with BoVD, or even CoC), I see no problem with that, nor would I think they'd need to market it under a different brand or identity.

However, if it's pure smut like BMX XXX, then I can see a problem. GTA 3 falls somewhere in the middle, though it's clearly closer to the smut side of things.

My point is, there are different types of 'mature' content, and some forms are arguably more 'mature' than others. The ESRB just lumps them all together and is not a very good indicator of what a game really contains.

(NOTE: I'm not railing against GTA 3 or most MA-rated games... they're obviously quite popular, and I've admittedly enjoyed a bit of GTA 3 myself)

 

[Nathanael]

For Jester and others who just joined in...

Look, you lot, if you can't be bothered to read the 6 pages of posts, then at least read mine so you know what my arguments are and can stop misquoting me.

They don't concern Devil/Daemon stats. They don't concern PrCs. They concern rules for selling your soul, human sacrifice, drug use, extremely graphic artwork (which WOTC artists say they have to keep redoing because it's not 'bloody' or 'naked' enough)etc.

I also don't care what YOU do in YOUR game. I'm concerned with the brand image and, if what the blurb on the advert says is true, and if two magazines and the BoVD itself need to be shrinkwrapped, then we're not talking your typical D&D stuff here. This will be linked to the D&D brand, not as some offshoot book for certain people and... you know, I tire of saying all of this over and over. Go read my other posts.

 

[Buttercup]

Like anyone named Buttercup could be anything but a dangero..err.. whats that noise.. ack..nooo!

*klump*

:smooch: