Book of Vile Darkness

[Psion]

ObReminder: Until I see it, I am not passing judgement on BovD going "over the line."

First off, I think this "media hype" paronoia probably won't pan out. Could, probably won't. As several have pointed out, it's day has passed.

What I am worried about has nothing to do with the media. It has to do with the grass roots. The perception of potential gamers and those who provide the spending dollars for those would be gamers. That, to me, is more important than the latest media distraction.

That said:

It is my opinion that "mainstreeam" is never going to nurture the hobby. If anything, it is more liklely to kill it, like it has many niche hobbies.

I doubt it will never really be "mainstream" per se. But on the other side of the coin, D&D has survived, nay thrived, without going the way of the Black Dog game factory. The D&D audience is not in the same fringe as those who the recent Demon: The Fallen contraversy appeals to. You know the type -- the "fringer than thou" gamers. D&D is closer to the mainstream than the likes of WW, and it would not thrive the way it does if it wasn't. We don't need a push in the fringe direction any more than we need a push in the mainstream direction.

 

[Nathanael]

Media hype isn't my main concern either. It's the grassroots, as you put it, but that, too, is influenced by the media. Other than that, what you said is very true, Psion.

 

[Tiefling]

Re: For Jester and others who just joined in...

... I also don't care what YOU do in YOUR game. ...

You don't need rules for these things. As my first post suggested, these should be story effects, not mechanical effects and they should be seen from a more human viewpoint, not the viewpoint of how to do them.

I dunno. When you repeatedly say how something SHOULD be in the game, it gives one the idea that you care very much.

 

[Nathanael]

Those with reading comprehension skills will also note the use of the word SUGGESTED.

 

[Wolfspider]

Re: For Jester and others who just joined in...

They concern rules for selling your soul, human sacrifice, drug use, extremely graphic artwork (which WOTC artists say they have to keep redoing because it's not 'bloody' or 'naked' enough)etc.

Could you please provide a link to this please? I require proof.

 

[barsoomcore]

We don't need a push in the fringe direction any more than we need a push in the mainstream direction.

I kind of disagree, Psion. I think we need pushes in both directions. Constantly. WotC ought to be pushing the envelope at times, just to see where the edge is, and at the same time encouraging conservatism in order to avoid fragmenting the market.

Not sure what you mean by "we", of course. You can get pretty "fringe" and remain d20, certainly. But whether we're talking about what's best for WotC or for the gaming community, there needs to be expansion and contraction going on if it's going to be a healthy and vibrant community or market. Somebody has to push the envelope and sometimes it ought to be WotC. Just like sometimes Microsoft has to try new things and gamble on out-on-the-edge stuff -- if you're not doing that then you're ceding the market to the up-and-comers.

Maybe the BoVD will be a complete embarrassment, resulting in negative publicity and lost sales and yada yada yada. I doubt it, myself. But even if it is, it's still emblematic of the sort of thing WotC and the gaming community need to keep doing.

 

[Ristamar]

Re: For Jester and others who just joined in...

They don't concern Devil/Daemon stats. They don't concern PrCs. They concern rules for selling your soul, human sacrifice, drug use, extremely graphic artwork (which WOTC artists say they have to keep redoing because it's not 'bloody' or 'naked' enough)etc.

Could you please provide a link to this please? I require proof.

...and while you're at it, what exactly is wrong with rules for sacrifices and selling your soul?

Lords of Darkness already touches on drug use. There have been PlaneScape products that have dealt with using souls as currency on the Lower Planes. These are not new concepts in the industry and have already been tapped (though not with much depth, admittedly). There was no public outcry against them. What's inherently bad about these types of rules? Making up your own rules somehow makes it ok because it's out of the public eye?

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: For Jester and others who just joined in...

They concern rules for selling your soul, human sacrifice, drug use, extremely graphic artwork (which WOTC artists say they have to keep redoing because it's not 'bloody' or 'naked' enough)etc.

None of which we actually KNOW is in this item. The fact that submitted art wasn't graphic enough does not imply any particular level of graphicality.

And besides, "rules for human sacrifice" to take an example could be something like: To summoun Demon Lord Hoohah requires twenty human sacrifices. What's graphic or appalling about that?

Rules on the effects of narcotics would be welcome. I hardly see how that would negatively impact the brand.

If what the blurb on the advert says is true, and if two magazines and the BoVD itself need to be shrinkwrapped, then we're not talking your typical D&D stuff here

Here's the advert:

Targeted toward mature audiences, Book of Vile Darkness deals with material that has never been explored in the D&D roleplaying game. Elements such as moral dilemma, slavery, human sacrifice, and other sensitive issues will be treated in a mature fashion to allow players to add a level of complexity to their campaigns. Also included are evil monsters; dark prestige classes; unique spells, magic items, and artifacts; and adventure material, as well as rules and advice to help Dungeon Masters create and play truly corrupt villains or run more intense campaigns.

And? Do we see anything to indicate there will be loving descriptions of vile acts? Graphic images of violence or sex? Rules for addicting people to drugs (though, as I've said, I would welcome that and don't see how it would be some PR disaster)?

Instead I see things like moral dilemmas treated in a mature fashion. Spells. Advice to DMs.

You're starting to sound hysterical, Nathanael. Demonstrate some evidence for your position and I'll certainly swing round. But just insisting something is true doesn't convince.

 

[kenjib]

A bunch of good stuff that I also wrote.

Lol - I just wrote approximately the same time you did and deleting it after I saw your response. Thanks for making me waste my time!

Nathanael,

One of the very few things we actually do know about this book from Monte is that it does not contain the kinds of material you have described in your posts. The book you are talking about is called F.A.T.A.L., not the book of Vile Darkness. Luckily F.A.T.A.L. was quite stillborn so we can both relax, be happy, and enjoy cracking open for the first time our copies of the BoVD. I love the smell of fresh book!

 

[Wolfen Priest]

When one takes into account that we know SQUAT about the content of the book (the specifics, anyway), it is downright...

IDIOTIC.

Not to fan the flames of your self-described anger, but I don't think you could be any more wrong.

We know squat about the contents of this book? ...Doesn't compute.

We are allowed to discuss this stuff, right? Or are you suggesting this thread be <ahem> censored?