Book of Vile Darkness

[Khan the Warlord]

Not to fan the flames of your self-described anger, but I don't think you could be any more wrong.

We know squat about the contents of this book? ...Doesn't compute.

We are allowed to discuss this stuff, right? Or are you suggesting this thread be <ahem> censored?

Heh.

You took one sentence that led into me elaborating my reasoning -- reread the whole thing and you'll see my meaning, thanks. You should also read what was in parenthesis of that quote as well, while you're at it.

And at no point was I suggesting censorship. I never asked for an EN World moderator to storm in here and close the thread or remove it altogether. Now, I was hinting at the fact that the people whining about the book, while they don't have a copy to know how Monte and WotC handled the "extreme" subjects, may please reconsider their position and drop the arguement, until they have the product and the right to pass sentencing on the design team.

It is silly.

Quite silly.

 

[Wanderer At Dusk]

I'd have to say the book is very tempting to get for me, yet also at the same time it pushes me away.

I have had a very bad experience with sacrafice in my games, back when i was in junior high. One of my players, the sorcerer encountered a little girl who was seperated from her mother by the chaos of a large battle that just happened in the city. He wanted to sacrafice her, he was of good alignment, he wanted to sacrafice her. My mother heard this, it almost cost me from playing the game and had there parents found out they wouldn't be playing the game either. I managed to convince her it was just a stupid outburst. One of the first things starting Dnd up in my town was me promiseing everyones parents i'd keep the game out of such things as well as clean. I'm in High School now and the danger of getting a player banned still exists from such things. Having rules makes it even more likely for one to give in to the temptation, rather then creating your own rules would.

With that i also think the book is going to be excellent quality. However in my game how much of it could i use? The stats for the archdevils and other monsters would be excellent. What would happen if one of my players parents found out I had such a book? I may go for the other book mentioned here (i don't remember the name but it was by the folks that made Kalamar right?)

I also have to contend with the fact that almost all of my current players are extremely immature. I am considering dropping most of them from my regular game. They do not handle mature things such as torture, sacrafice of sentients or selling ones soul well at all. Hell i've had trouble with them encountering female npcs. There is only one player that is up to a mature level besides myself. He is also a DM (i taught him). Were probably going to start up another group.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

Khan, I guess we may not know anything specific about the BoVD yet, but it really depends on the definition of "specifics." We do know about some specific topics that the book will cover.

Now, having said that, I also mentioned that I will be buying the book. OF COURSE I WILL BUY IT! Personally, I'm just speculating about how it will possibly impact the game. Everything we've discussed on this thread has been basically speculation anyway, so I really don't see the harm in it.

If we have a good idea of what's in the book (heck, that's why we're talking about it in the first place, and that's why we're going to buy the dang thing), then we can discuss it's potential impact.

I shouldn't have to even point this out, but the only person who brought up censorship was expressing a fear of it. I don't think anyone ever mentioned that they want this product to be censored; and even if someone did (want it), that equates to more press for it, and probably more sales as a consequence.

And as to the idea that WotC is targeting college undergraduates, that may well be, but I'd bet about 90% of us here all started at a younger age. It's a valid case that many gamers start at around age 12 or so. And with books costing upwards of $30 a pop, you can wager that "mom" is going to buy it for "Billy" as much as "Billy" buys it himself.

I don't think the BoVD could ever topple the Empire that is D&D (even if it did cause a huge uproar), but it's not absurd to think that it could well take this hobby of ours in a new direction. And I am pretty happy with it as it stands.

 

[Khan the Warlord]

Everything we've discussed on this thread has been basically speculation anyway, so I really don't see the harm in it.

If we have a good idea of what's in the book (heck, that's why we're talking about it in the first place, and that's why we're going to buy the dang thing), then we can discuss it's potential impact.

To a point, you're quite right. However, those few people that are against tBoVD aren't using key terms like "if", "may", and the like -- they're actually speaking as if they magically know exactly how Monte and the rest of the team at WotC handled every topic and how HORRIBLY they did that job.

No one knows if this is the case or not! Why can't these worried few just take the stance that Monte MAY or MAY NOT have handled all of the topics in a mature and tasteful fashion, instead of "THIS BOOK SHOULD NOT BE FOR REASON X, OF WHICH I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M BABBLING ABOUT"???

*sigh*

 

[Ciarrai]

Personally, I'm torn

On one hand, I really don't want to read about evil. There is enough evil in the world without having entire books about it and I am sure there will be some content that will bothers me in some way. It wouldn't be evil if it didn't cross some line and everyone has their own threshold for what they can deal with.

On the other hand, having evil more defined.... having the things that we fight actually be TRUELY evil, actually makes the game a little more moral in some ways.

With watered down villians, sometimes it seems like the PCs are just beating people up or killing them because they want something the villian has, because they have differing opinions or want opposing things, because they have green skin and/or pointy teeth or are a monster in some way, or because they want the experience. Is that really a reason to fight someone or kill?

If the BoVD actually makes it more likely that there is a reason that my characters HAVE to fight and kill... that the stakes are big enough and the issues at hand are clear enough to justify the violence, then it might be worth it to me.

Having said that, I do not think this book will be suitable for everyone. There are plenty of gamers who do not have the mental stability or the maturity to deal with the topics covered here. But the good thing is that it is a suppliment. You can play the game and never see one thing from between the covers of the BoVD and if it bothers you so much you can personally abstain from using it, reading it or buying it.

 

[Desdichado]

Re: For Jester and others who just joined in...

Look, you lot, if you can't be bothered to read the 6 pages of posts, then at least read mine so you know what my arguments are and can stop misquoting me.

That's pretty rich coming from you: complaints about ignoring points you've already made? When are you going to stop ignoring all the posts that tear up your "argument" by pointing to your scandalous use of "un-facts" and presenting them as truths? Oh, I know. It makes everything you've said pretty invalid. But if you really want to engage in some discussion you want someone else to take seriously, you oughtta at least acknowledge the fact that, for instance, you have no idea what the contents of the book are.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Re: Re: For Jester and others who just joined in...

That's pretty rich coming from you...

A wiser person then I suggested he might be a troll, but I think that is giving him too much credit.

FD

 

[Wolfspider]

extremely graphic artwork (which WOTC artists say they have to keep redoing because it's not 'bloody' or 'naked' enough)etc.

Nathanael, I'll repeat my question: Where did you hear this? What is your proof?

 

[Lady Dragon]

The way I see it there are 3 basic attitudes toward D&D. The first Type are of course us gamers, we understand it and we understand the use and need for a book on the subject of evil villians done right. The second group of people are the "D&D is evil" group. These people are already biased to the point of ridiculous they haven't even bothered to read the PH I doubt they will even make a distiction between ordinary D&D books and the BoVD as far as they are concerned all of them are evil and they don't read them.

Finally the 3rd group is the rest of the public which view it as a quirky hobby by weirdo geeks and quite frankly I don't see them really caring about some D&D book. Fast Forward put out a book called the encyclopedia of Demons and Devils and that didn't get any press a book called the Book of Vile Darkness is also not going to get any attention cause quite frankly the general public just doesn't care about anything D&D.Only those of us familiar with the game even know that a Book of Vile Darkness is a magic item from the game.

Look at it this way if some of the stuff being putout by white wolf didn't hit their radar this won't either.There are far more interesting and mainstream things for the media to go after, their favorite being vidiogames for them to go after a niche hobby book that is played mostly by adults as opposed to young teens.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Kenjib and others have missed the point.

Tolkien doesn't describe the corruption in graphic terms. He doesn't say 'to get orcs you sodomize elves and then scoop out their brains and replace them with the blood of a slain innocent.'

What kenjib described wouldn't entail anything graphic. It would simply entail a corruption factor of some kind, along the lines of: "The PC must make a Will save, DC 25, every week that he bears the item. A failed save means the character has become corrupted. Here are the game effects of that corruption..." and then a chart of corruption effects. How is that so different from what has been done in any number of other instances?

As for the question about Dragon and Dungeon's "sealed" section - it's for publicity, folks. Come on, like Dragon or Dungeon could prevent some kid from reading it. If it was really that bad, customers would have to produce i.d. to buy it.