Sepulchrave II
Legend
I like demons. I'll buy it.
Book of Vile Darkness
- Thread starter Son_of_Thunder
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the Jester
Legend
Re: For Jester and others who just joined in...
Well, for the record I've been following this thread with interest since the beginning, and actually paying a lot of attention to what you're posting.
I guess I didn't put my feelings forward very clearly. I should have left out the examples. All right, let me try again.
I realize that what you object to isn't Demogorgon's stats. It seems like what you're more concerned about is the roleplaying aspect of interacting with Demogorgon. There was an infamous pc cleric of Juiblex in my game years ago. He slew many another pc, as well as lots of important npcs, before he was finally laid low by another pc. During this time he made many sacrifices to his demon prince. It would be nice to have a consistent system to handle his rewards. Now, obviously, I dealt with it just fine; and certainly having that sort of pc in the campaign isn't for every group. But he made for great role-playing possibilities; by the end, almost every other pc active in the game was out to get him. He tortured, used drugs and poisons, dealt with demons and was nasty and evil in ways the rules just don't cover.
Now, as I understand your concerns, basically you're afraid that this book is going to cause an uproar against dnd and force it back into the shadows. Well, I remember all the anti-rpg propoganda in the 80's and I'd hate to see a return to it; I was once handed a flyer by one of my jr. high teachers about how dnd promoted voodoo, witchcraft, assassination, poison use, demon worship, etc. But you know what? If a "mature audiences" book was going to do that, don't you think it would have already happened with the Black Dog stuff? Heck, don't you think games like Vampire would have done it? Or LARPing! Look at those kids, living in a fantasy world, why they might assault you and drink your blood!, blah blah blah. I just don't see it happening.
I certainly don't intend any insult to you, and I respect your opinion; I just disagree with you. I think the BoVD is a chance for dnd to address some genuinely fresh material that's long since overdue and, actually, somtimes necessary. For example, how do you determine whether a pc can resist being tortured for information? Or how long he can resist? Or what's left of him afterward? After all, most tortures can be ruinous to the body and mind. Could you cast a spell with after your thumbs were crushed by a vise? How much damage do you take if you're slammed inside an iron maiden?
Sure, I can make up answers; so can you. But they'll be different answers. And sometimes, when the pcs walk into a dungeon's torture chamber, the giant guardian might want to throw them in the iron maiden and slam it shut.
Nathanael said:
Well, for the record I've been following this thread with interest since the beginning, and actually paying a lot of attention to what you're posting.
I guess I didn't put my feelings forward very clearly. I should have left out the examples. All right, let me try again.
I realize that what you object to isn't Demogorgon's stats. It seems like what you're more concerned about is the roleplaying aspect of interacting with Demogorgon. There was an infamous pc cleric of Juiblex in my game years ago. He slew many another pc, as well as lots of important npcs, before he was finally laid low by another pc. During this time he made many sacrifices to his demon prince. It would be nice to have a consistent system to handle his rewards. Now, obviously, I dealt with it just fine; and certainly having that sort of pc in the campaign isn't for every group. But he made for great role-playing possibilities; by the end, almost every other pc active in the game was out to get him. He tortured, used drugs and poisons, dealt with demons and was nasty and evil in ways the rules just don't cover.
Now, as I understand your concerns, basically you're afraid that this book is going to cause an uproar against dnd and force it back into the shadows. Well, I remember all the anti-rpg propoganda in the 80's and I'd hate to see a return to it; I was once handed a flyer by one of my jr. high teachers about how dnd promoted voodoo, witchcraft, assassination, poison use, demon worship, etc. But you know what? If a "mature audiences" book was going to do that, don't you think it would have already happened with the Black Dog stuff? Heck, don't you think games like Vampire would have done it? Or LARPing! Look at those kids, living in a fantasy world, why they might assault you and drink your blood!, blah blah blah. I just don't see it happening.
I certainly don't intend any insult to you, and I respect your opinion; I just disagree with you. I think the BoVD is a chance for dnd to address some genuinely fresh material that's long since overdue and, actually, somtimes necessary. For example, how do you determine whether a pc can resist being tortured for information? Or how long he can resist? Or what's left of him afterward? After all, most tortures can be ruinous to the body and mind. Could you cast a spell with after your thumbs were crushed by a vise? How much damage do you take if you're slammed inside an iron maiden?
Sure, I can make up answers; so can you. But they'll be different answers. And sometimes, when the pcs walk into a dungeon's torture chamber, the giant guardian might want to throw them in the iron maiden and slam it shut.
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Here here, Jester!
And, let's not forget that in D&D, torture can be extended via magic. Imagine bringing the sucker back from death's door via healing magics, after throwing him in the iron maiden.
Considering the rigorous amounts of stuff that could be done, Rules to inform you on How to handle how long it takes someone to crack would be good.
And, let's not forget that in D&D, torture can be extended via magic. Imagine bringing the sucker back from death's door via healing magics, after throwing him in the iron maiden.
Considering the rigorous amounts of stuff that could be done, Rules to inform you on How to handle how long it takes someone to crack would be good.
the Jester
Legend
Xarlen said:With Mialee, Vadania, and Alexandra?
Are you kidding?? You'll never get Alexandra in that one!!
Now, find us a good female ELF paladin...
Olive
Explorer
just so we're allclear:
the green ronin 'vileness' that people are referring to is the sacrifices that the thurmatagist class in Armies of the Abyss have to make in order to gain their spells. It's pretty vile.
The comment from Nathanel about graphic, naked and blody art refers to a early post where someone claimed to have been told by their local game shop owner that the artists for BoVD shop their and were told by WotC that they needed to make their art more vile.
Now, I couldn't care less. I want mechanics for selling ones soul and human sacrifice and joining cults. What I've seen so far (lords of darkness, one of the PrCs in Masters of the Wild and the monster cults from Dragon) I like. I like Monte's work. And I lik evil. I've never seen any actual suggestion hat the book will have soddomy rules ('and I roll at 20 for penatration depth! take that small faerie creature!!!') or any of the other stuff some people seem to think this book will have... i bet monte's laughing at us RIGHT NOW!
Also, you're all wrong when you say that there is no rules for torture in DnD. the Stronghold Builders Guidebook has some very small ones...
enough from me.
the green ronin 'vileness' that people are referring to is the sacrifices that the thurmatagist class in Armies of the Abyss have to make in order to gain their spells. It's pretty vile.
The comment from Nathanel about graphic, naked and blody art refers to a early post where someone claimed to have been told by their local game shop owner that the artists for BoVD shop their and were told by WotC that they needed to make their art more vile.
Now, I couldn't care less. I want mechanics for selling ones soul and human sacrifice and joining cults. What I've seen so far (lords of darkness, one of the PrCs in Masters of the Wild and the monster cults from Dragon) I like. I like Monte's work. And I lik evil. I've never seen any actual suggestion hat the book will have soddomy rules ('and I roll at 20 for penatration depth! take that small faerie creature!!!') or any of the other stuff some people seem to think this book will have... i bet monte's laughing at us RIGHT NOW!
Also, you're all wrong when you say that there is no rules for torture in DnD. the Stronghold Builders Guidebook has some very small ones...
enough from me.
Son_of_Thunder
Explorer
Howdy All!!!
Howdy fellow ENWorldites!!!
There have been some well thought out replies and posts here. It proves that my opinion can be swayed. I will hold off on my decision until I can actually peruse the book.
As many have pointed out we don't really know what's in the book. I have also changed my opinion about Monte. He doesn't have an unhealthy fascination with evil, he's just a very good writer that fills this niche in the game.
I just want to thank those who kept it civil and given well thought out replies.
Son of Thunder
Howdy fellow ENWorldites!!!
There have been some well thought out replies and posts here. It proves that my opinion can be swayed. I will hold off on my decision until I can actually peruse the book.
As many have pointed out we don't really know what's in the book. I have also changed my opinion about Monte. He doesn't have an unhealthy fascination with evil, he's just a very good writer that fills this niche in the game.
I just want to thank those who kept it civil and given well thought out replies.
Son of Thunder
Desdichado
Hero
Yeah, I've been devil's advocate (no pun intended, reallyHenry said:
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William Ronald
Explorer
I have read through several pages of this thread, to find that people are being a bit uncivil and perhaps worrying a bit too much. (With some of the insults, I am surprised the moderators have not given out a few warnings.)
It is likely that the BoVD will have some rules on the effects of associating with evil entities and evil practices, such as human sacrifice. However, almost any topic can be written about in a mature, non-provocative manner.
Perhaps it is best to wait until the book is released to judge it.
However, there is something to be said for heroes fighting truly evil villains as opposed to just engaging in another treasure raid. I think we should try to avoid prejudging a book.
It is likely that the BoVD will have some rules on the effects of associating with evil entities and evil practices, such as human sacrifice. However, almost any topic can be written about in a mature, non-provocative manner.
Perhaps it is best to wait until the book is released to judge it.
However, there is something to be said for heroes fighting truly evil villains as opposed to just engaging in another treasure raid. I think we should try to avoid prejudging a book.
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