Book of Vile Darkness

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Hmmm...well, relaxing here smoking my pipe, I can't say I quite understand what the fuss is all about. There are books in any bookstore, and stuff that is easily found on the internet that is far more graphic and immoral than anything that is likely to be discussed in detail or shown in the Book of Vile Darkness. This is a GAME. The GAME appeals to a wide audience--not just kids under 18. Parents should always inspect stuff their KIDS buy. If they don't approve of it--take it back. If an adult doesn't approve of it--don't buy it. For the rest, though, the book may offer a wide range of interesting ideas, discussion, and mechanics, not to mention creatures, demons, magic items, spells, and stats, that many will find useful.

In my own games, there are drugs and sanity-balsting substances; there is rape; there is human sacrifice; there is demcn-summoning; there is slavery; there is cruel torture; there are dark blasphemies that threaten to befoul and subjugate the entire world; there is madness, lust, murder, racism, and hatred;there is prostitution, sex, orgies, and wicked debauchery of all kinds; there is genocide, corruption, mayhem and insanity unleashed!

These things are all present, in different degrees, and with different levels of detail, depending on the players present. Obviously, when kids under 18 are playing, the level of detail and description is different. With adults, more detail and context, as desired, can be provided.

All of which is set into the plot, characters, and context of what is going on at the time and place in the campaign. I've never had any problems with any of it, or with any players. What is the problem? The Book of Vile Darkness will likely only enhance the mechanics and context of such topics within the campaign. I just don't see what so many people are upset over a book they haven't even seen, and a book that is written by a very skilled writer and game designer, Mr. Monte Cook.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Tiefling]

SHARK, I think if you re-read the thread carefully you'll find that the fuss is about whether or not irrational parents will see this book and not let their kids play D&D, and/or if the media will pick up on it and start another witch hunt.

 

[jester47]

And for those who simply don't give a rat's you-know-what about the next generation of gamers, do you ever think about what will happen to our little hobby if people stop playing it? I for one don't want to see it taken over by CRPG's. Flexor, how old were you when you started playing D&D? I was 12; my parents had to buy me the books. If it starts to scare away soccer moms with fears of satanism and dark rituals, guess what? The hobby will lose gamers, period. Or else the people who take it up will become even more distanced from 'mainstream' society.

Jumping in on a mile long thread... will this ever be read?

I disagree with you on this Wolfen Priest. I think it will make our hobby stronger. Obviously you care a lot about the hobby and want it to grow and enter the mainstreem. However, I do not think getting kids involved early is the way to do it.

Ryan Dancy made the point that one of the greatest mistakes that TSR ever made was targeting the ages 8 and up category. Doing that caused much of the damage of the 1980 D&D satanism scare. If the game had not been packaged and targeted at kids, it probably would not have gotten attacked like it did and the hobby would be better off for it. This game should have never been targeted for kids. It is not, and has never been, a game for kids. The target age for 3E is 18+.

Yes there are some prodigies out there. There is the occasional 8- 12 year old, that grew up around it or got involved early. I can say from my experience, while I have been playing D&D since I was 8, I started truely playing by the rules when I was in my mid to late teens.

If I was working in a book store and a "soccer mom" came to the checkout stand with her kid and a PHB, I would challenge her. I would ask if she was aware that the game was designed for an older (18+) audience and if she was sure that she wanted to buy it for her child. The game is rated R, and I think it is responsible to make that clear when we talk about it.

If we did this two things would happen. It would become a game only adults play. Teenagers would be trying to play it like they try to get cigarettes and alcohol. (ok well maybe not that much) Also the game would not have such a negative connotation because the players were showing a higher level of responsibility.

I think that the Book of Vile Darkness is a rated R book. And I think the warning label is saying "hey most of the other stuff is PG13 but this book is rated R. If you don't like the R stuff please do not buy this book." If you are offended by the extreme R movies then dont get the book. But I do not think that this book is going to be even that bad. It will definately not be rated X.

Aaron.

 

[Tiefling]

Wait... first you say the game is rated R... then you say that most of it is PG-13 and the BoVD is R. Personally I'm not even sure about that. I suppose the illustrations MIGHT push it there (if there's excessive gore and nudity), but talking about human-sacrifice and demon-worship doesn't do it.

 

[Latency]

I will pick it just because I buy all the books wizards prints

 

[Desdichado]

What makes you think the target audience for 3e is 18+ year olds? I'd say it's more early teens and up -- and a lot of that's just in the complexity of the rules, not the content per se.

Although there is a breast or two in the monster manual. Not so much as in 1e MM, of course.

 

[barsoomcore]

Although there is a breast or two in the monster manual. Not so much as in 1e MM, of course.

Mmmm, remember the succubus? That was a formative experience for me...

 

[Henry]

Should I post again? Why the heck not?

I see - not even minimal damage - I see ZERO damage done by the Book of Vile Darkness to the image of D&D among parents of young children. It comes down to parental responsibility, and to exposure of parents to the material. Believe me, if a parent were to be truly worried about the BOVD, they would be also controlling their children's exposure to the following:

• All popular culture music
• All entertainment programming on all television networks
• All popular fiction novels
• Works containing no negative consequences for drug abuse, promiscuous sexuality, or violent flagrant opposition of authority

And that's just the short list.

D&D will become no more known for its "promotion of evil" than it already is. Not having the BOVD published will not make it any LESS so, either. Unless you personally are trying to convince someone that D&D is wholesome, and you have a front-cover-up copy in front of you while talking, it's doubtful that any non-gamer would even know or care about the BOVD.

 

[jester47]

Kenjib and others have missed the point.

Tolkien doesn't describe the corruption in graphic terms. He doesn't say 'to get orcs you sodomize elves and then scoop out their brains and replace them with the blood of a slain innocent.'

Can you assure me that the Book of Vile Darkness does have such graphic terms as you have invented here?

Do you need to know the exact powers you get from vile acts and the dice mechanic to make sure you did the vile act correctly? Ring wraiths are said by Tolkien to be corrupted by their greed and the effect of the one ring. Not 'they sacrificed 100 virgins after sodomizing them and biting off their nipples, because that's how it's done.'

Do you think that there will be a dice mechanic to make sure a character did the act correctly? DC20 on a knowledge (sacrifice) roll perhaps?

Nathanael, you do not know if this is what the book is about. Unless you were a playtester, you have not seen it anddo not know what it contains. Your fears, while full of the best intentions are based completely on speculation. My argument on this point (what we can guess will be contained in the book) continues at the end of this post.

For those who have refused to read back a few pages, I'll recap my points in a condensed format:

D&D is a high profile example of RPGs. It's market is larger than university kids and old D&D vets. Putting the D&D Logo on BoVD will damage the family oriented aspects of roleplaying and discourage parents from allowing their children, a vital source of new players, to participate.

I don't want normal children playing this game. Kids have more fun outside playing pretend without rules. Put the book away kids, and go get hurt in the field, it will make you stronger.

D&D is not mainstream enough to survive an attack by the media similar to the one aimed at computer games after Columbine. My belief that the release of this book is a marketing ploy is not a conspiracy theory, but the professional opinion of a Marketing person. History is full of examples of good things gone to pot over bad publicity (Mighty Mouse). Kenzer & Company's book is a good example of the book your looking for without all of the needless graphic exposition. A good storyteller doesn't need such exposition in the first place to create a mood.

No you are wrong. D&D DID survive an attack from the media similar and far more extensive than the one aimed at First Person Shooter Video Games after Columbine. The attack lasted almost a decade and guess what? We won. We are still here and stronger than ever. Because of that attack we have the resources and the know how to squash a second attempt. If anything the reason FPS games survived the attack is because they studied what the RPG industry did. Bad publicity knocked the gaming industry on its a$$. But it got up and kept on puching. In the end we won.

Now here is what we know about the contents of the Book of Vile Darkness:

Catalog:

Elements such as moral dilemma, slavery, human sacrifice, and other sensitive issues will be treated in a mature fashion to allow players to add a level of complexity to their campaigns.

Monte Says:

Well, the book handles horrible things ranging from torture to drug addiction. Sadism, self-mutilation, and selling one's soul. Sacrifice and disease. Spells so awful that they corrupt you when you cast them--in body and/or soul.

Some of these topics (and more that I haven't even mentioned) are "mature audiences" material. You'll find frank discussions of the evil that men (and women) do. This isn't there to encourage such things, even as player characters, but so that it can be used for villains. There is a section on playing evil characters, but that's not the main focus of the book.

So here is the list of topics:

Moral Delima - These are classic trap the paladin cases.

slavery - I bet it runs the gambit of buying and selling, laborer to servant, and all points in between.

Human Sacrifice - not how to sacrifice but rather why bad guys would want to do it and what they get out of it.

Selling ones soul - Faust did it in Budapest, why can't Rary do it in Greyhawk? Besides, devils are always open for a deal as Charlie Danials likes to remind us.

drug addiction - Drug running is in Lords of Darkness, might as well cover theother side of it eh?

Sadism and Self Mutilation - I think we will get a lecture on these things, not examples but rather somthing similar to the mental disorders section in CoC, cause well thats what they are... I think this would also include information of the impact on people caused by "the evil that men do."

No where has anything been said about explicit material. Mature material, yes, explicit description of depraved acts described in detail, no. The book will be nothing worse than CoC in my opinion.

Aaron.

 

[Desdichado]

Nathanael, you do not know if this is what the book is about. Unless you were a playtester, you have not seen it anddo not know what it contains. Your fears, while full of the best intentions are based completely on heresy.

I think you mean hearsay

EDIT: Whoops, by the time I posted that, you had already changed it. My bad!