Books and Knowledge

[schporto]

So I had an idea for a 'new' item partly stolen from the latest Dragon. Not really magical. Basically the mechanic would work that you buy a book, read it for a determined amount of time, then make an intelligence check. You then get some knowledge ranks. Off hand I was thinking that the numbers would work out to be 50gp, 1 week, and a DC 15 check to get you 1 rank in knowledge (whatever). Perhaps setting a limit on the ranks (or maybe circumstance bonus?) equal to your total intelligence score. Then increase the gold by 50, time by 1 week, DC by 1 for each additional rank. What do folks think of this?

-cpd

 

[Kisanji Arael]

Makes sense.

*yoink*

 

[Felnar]

makes sense... but it would really throw off character balance
just like if you could say, oh my character spends the week lifting weights all day, so i get +1 strength

it might work if you priced it high enough to actually cut into a characters wealth
perhaps price it as an unslotted skill bonus item

 

[schporto]

I don't see ranks in knowledge (X) to be nearly as important as strength. But what if there was a limit on the ranks possible to obtain in this method (maybe 5-10?). And in order to get ranks you have to buy a book of that much and spend that much time uninterrupted. So you would have to buy ...
Book1 - Grants 1 rank in Knowledge X for 50 gp and 1 week of time - pass a Int check DC 16.
before you could buy...
Book 2 - Grants 2 ranks in Knowledge X for 100 gp and 2 weeks of time - pass an Int check of DC 17.
After taking both of these books you'd only have 2 total ranks gained in this method (not 3). The effects of each book overlap, not stack.
Do folks think that would make them a little more balanced?
-cpd

 

[Crothian]

makes sense... but it would really throw off character balance
just like if you could say, oh my character spends the week lifting weights all day, so i get +1 strength

well strength isn't a skill, but using th books one could learn to jump better or any other skill and gain a rank. As long as all characters do it balance is saved.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Do folks think that would make them a little more balanced?

Definetely.

Yoink.

 

[Felnar]

i wasnt comparing knowledge to strength
i gave a second example of a situation that makes sense but would effect balance

after your changes, i still think the price is too low
and giving out more skill points hurts rogues

what if reading the books let you make untrained skill checks against DCs higher than 10?

 

[Panask]

One problem is that the book, not being magical, isn't used up when you're done. The first character might have to pay 50 or 100 gp for it, but then he could pass it around to all his friends.

This is difficult to balance. Maybe there should be some penalty for failed checks... the character learns the techniques incorrectly and begins to mess up his skill checks, at least for a while.

Panask
Servitar to Baldur

 

[schporto]

OK. A little more feedback, a little more changes..... The thing is I really like the concept, but yes I do want to make it somewhat balanced. So to that end, let's change this to a general mechanic. So it could be used for other skills also (but not books, maybe a 'training' lock, or a weeks training in how to jump).
So the prices remain what I said earlier, they only get you skill points to spend in that area. So there's still the concept of cross class skills. Also the item that you would need to purchase must exceed you current skill modifier. So if your Jump modifier is 10, you would need to spend 12 weeks, and (12*50 =) 600 gold, then pass a jump check of (15+12=)27, to then get 2 new skill points to spend in jump. Failure of passing that would mean you need to spend another week and another 50gp to retry at that same level.
Does this end up seeming a bit more fair to the skill rich rogues?
And while the books can be passed around, I don't think that hurts too much. To me the real cost of this is the time required. I'd see it as similar to crafting an item. You can't be doing other stuff while learning this. So really I think this might hurt the crafters, not nessecarily the rogues.
Thanks again for the feedback.
-cpd

 

[XeviatTranion]

This is one of the weaknesses of a level based system like D&D. Reading, and understanding, a book should give you increased knowledge ranks, just like lifting weights should increase your strength. But these things, skills and ability scores, go up on their own as you gain levels; thus, in D&D, these activities grant you experience points.

Rather than mucking with game balance by allowing characters to gain skill points out of levels, you could instead have a book grant a circumstance bonus on knowledge checks if the character has the book to reference when they are trying to answer the question. Not the most perfect solution, but even the most intelligent super geniuses reference books.

 

[XeviatTranion]

PS: Alternately, you could develop experience point costs and time for gaining certain things. Make prices for ability scores and skills; ability scores should cost four times as much as skills since they grant bonuses to several skills and other abilities, while a skill only grants a bonus to itself.

Then, when a character is practicing, studying, or doing what not, they spend an allotted time practicing and then pay a number of experience points.

Since characters gain more XP each level as they increase in levels, make the costs scale depending on how high the ability score/skill currently is. Increasing a strength of 6 to 7 is easier than increasing a strength of 18 to 19; just like learning the basics of a skill (rank 1) is easier than mastering it (rank 10?)

PPS: Another idea is to not grant charaters all of their abilities upon level up. Sure, they gain X skill points at a level up, but their training dictates where it goes. Unless they're putting points into something odd, it's reasonable that they can increase the points automatically; but if a character in the desert wants swim ranks, they have to train. If an illiterate person wants to learn to read, they have to train. If a character who has spent no time in a dungeon or underground wants to pick up knowledge (dungeonering), they need to read about it or experience it. This would probably be the easiest thing to impliment.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

OK. A little more feedback, a little more changes.....

Ouch, I think I'm getting a migraine. The mechanics are starting to hurt my head.

 

[Cabral]

And while the books can be passed around, I don't think that hurts too much. To me the real cost of this is the time required. I'd see it as similar to crafting an item. You can't be doing other stuff while learning this. So really I think this might hurt the crafters, not nessecarily the rogues.

So allow other activities, even allow spending half-days on it (so it takes twice as long) but the student should probably be fatigued at the end of his studies. (thus offering an evil-gm ambush oppurtunity )

Assuming 5 is the maximum rank you can get from the book, it's also where balance issues really come in since that is when you gain synergy bonuses. From my experience in the physics department (proud holder of Knowledge(Physics): 1 ), I would say the later ranks would require multiple books. So how about this: cost is (Book rank)^2 x 50 gp and a number of days of study equal to gp price / 10 (if interupted, make a DC 15 concentration check to resume).
so rank 1: 50 gp
2: 200 gp
3: 450 gp
4: 800 gp
5: 1,250 gp
You can only read a book (or book sets) one rank higher than the number of ranks you already possess in that skill.

The DC to absorb the knowledge of the book is 15+the book's rank, +4 if it would put you over you skill cap in that skill.

The time requirement seems too harsh, but I like the gp costs ...

Oh, btw, my wife's a bibliophile, yoink

 

[Angel Tarragon]

My head thanks you Cabral. That clearly makes sense.

 

[General Barron]

I totally don't like this idea. I'm not trying to be offensive, but it just doesn't make any sense with the existing DnD method of character improvement. Currently, your character only improves when he gains a level. Then he improves in a whole bunch of different stuff. This is how a class system works (which I'm actually not a fan of).

Bought equipment, such as armor, magic items, etc only adds a bonus to character skills or abilities; but not a permanent increase that lasts even after the item is gone.

I'm all for being able to buy a book (or collection of books) that would give you a +1/+2 circumstance bonus to knowledge checks. But any item that permanently increases a skill or ability should be magical and very rare/expensive.

If you have a problem with the way characters instantly gain skills, then you should look into some sort of training system, where characters have to spend time & money to gain their new abilities after each level. For example, after gaining a level, a character can spend X number of weeks in a library, and then can increase their knowledge skills.

Alternatively, if you want characters to be able to gain skill without having to kill stuff (a noble goal), then you could implement some way to give characters XP for spending time and money training (then let them advance levels as normal). This way you could simulate them lifting weights to gain strength, or target shooting to gain BaB, and so on. Since this requires a GP commitment, players can't simply train forever (they need to adventure to finance their training).

 

[schporto]

Bought equipment, such as armor, magic items, etc only adds a bonus to character skills or abilities; but not a permanent increase that lasts even after the item is gone.

I'm all for being able to buy a book (or collection of books) that would give you a +1/+2 circumstance bonus to knowledge checks. But any item that permanently increases a skill or ability should be magical and very rare/expensive.

The books like manual of gainful exercise come to mind - although they do fit the criteria of magical, and expensive. And that's fine that you don't like it. I'm not offended. I have my tastes, you yours.

Cabral - THANK YOU! Putting that succinctly into words is neigh perfect. I wouldn't allow folks to go over their skill cap. And I'm thinking there should be no retry. You just can't comprehend that book.
-cpd

 

[Dog Moon]

I think perhaps the items should be a little more expensive and perhaps drop the cap. A cloak of elvenkind grants +5 to Hide and costs 2,500gp. AND it uses a magical item slot. An item which doesn't take up an item space is supposed to cost twice as much, meaning that item would cost 5,000gp. The fact that it is a permanent bonus and cannot be taken away, stolen, dispelled, etc, means it should probably cost about a little more, say about 7,500gp.

[Bonus squared x100 is for a normal skill item such as the Cloak of Elvenkind]

I think the cost should be about Bonus squared x300, which would mean that +5 to a skill would cost 7,500gp. You wouldn't have to learn them in order, however, and since competence bonuses wouldn't stack, reading a +1 book and then a +3 book would only grant a total of +3. [It means that the book of Hide would also NOT stack with the Cloak of Elvenkind, to prevent someone from increasing their Hide by a LOT easily].

I suppose this is the way you might go if you were thinking of magical items similar to the Book/Tomes/Librams of stat increases. It may not be desirable to have them as magic items instead of something like normal textbooks, but by the magic item creation process, I believe this is more accurate to what the items should cost in comparison to other magic items.

 

[wuyanei]

I do not like the mechanics as written. Knowledge checks, especially knowledge checks made when on an adventure, reprsent the knowledge the characters have 'on hand'. Just reading a book once should not provide a permanent benefit, unless the books are magical, such as a Tome of Understanding or the like.

Instead of gaining a permanent bonus after reading each book, how about letting the characters amass a personal library that grants a circumstance bonus to either knowledge (any one), spellcraft or decipher script checks equal to the square root of (cost spent / 250)?

i.e. Cost of library = bonus squared x 250 gp

We use 250 gp because circumstance bonuses are better than competence bonuses -- comparable to the difference between luck bonuses (2500 gp) and enhancement bonuses (1000 gp). If the character wants bonuses to more than one skill, she can buy a seperate 'library' for each skill.

It should be reasonable that, for all the many benefits of broad reading, you generally do not memorize each and every book you read. Therefore, it should be reasonable to need to have the book at hand[/b] to gain the benefits. Also, one single book seldom containes the width of knowledge that one skill point represents -- Knowledge (physics), for example, will cover quantum mechanics, classical mechanics, classical electrodynamics, fluid dynamics, high energy physics, astrophysics, etc. etc. -- it is better to say that the bonuses come from a collection of many books relating to similar topics.

If you really want the characters to be able to get a permanent boost, I suggest using a Tome-like mechanism -- ie. a magic book that grants inherent bonuses to a skill. Let each wish spell grant +2 inherent bonus instead, up to a maximum of +10 inherent bonu, so the books would grant +2, +4, +6, +8, +10 inherent bonus to a single skill.

Spellcraft for Dummies: This delightfully illustrated handbook contains formulas and theories on metaphysics and the nature of magic, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, she gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +10 (depending on the type of tome) to any spellcraft check she makes. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Price 27,500 gp (+2), 55,000 gp (+4), 82,500 gp (+6), 110,000 gp (+8), 137,500 gp (+10); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+2), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+4), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+6), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+8), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+10); Weight 5 lb.

 

[Kapalen]

I do not like the mechanics as written. Knowledge checks, especially knowledge checks made when on an adventure, reprsent the knowledge the characters have 'on hand'. Just reading a book once should not provide a permanent benefit, unless the books are magical, such as a Tome of Understanding or the like.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just say that when a cleric makes a knowledge religion check they whip out their "Bible" and look up the answer? If reading books didn't give knowledge, why do they make texts books? Mathematicians don't have all their old text books, they don't need them after reading them. Showing they learned the knowledge i what the DC check is for.

 

[wuyanei]

No. When I said 'on hand' I meant 'memorized' or 'internalized'. So, no, when a cleric makes a knowledge check she does not whip out a bible -- but she will not recieve a single point bonus to her check even if she has more than 100 books about religion at home.

If read a book, then internalized the knowledge, is exactly what 'leveling up' represents. She can gain +1 rank as normal (by spending skill points) in this case. The skill points represent the time she spent practicing and honing her skill including reading and studying books. 'Reading' books do not give knowledgel. Knowledge comes from understanding what the books are talking about. In D&D, understanding comes from experience -- levels and skill points. Just reading a book does not help.