Boost Combat Expertise with Shields

[Scion]

The problem is that a free +5 bonus

Considering that in order to use it you have to use a shield I dont consider it terribly free.

At least no more free than the power attack bonus with a 2 handed weapon.

Comparing with dodge is a pretty poor comparison though I think. It doesnt take any extra sacrifice beyond the feat itself (such as penalty to hit or needing to use a shield) and it is 'still' a pretty horribly underpowered feat. I have made it +1 dodge vs all enemies when not flat footed in my games and it still isnt exactly a powerhouse of an option.

The PC to which I alluded in my reply to Elder Basilisk who abused Improved Combat Expertise (which is less dangerous than this proposal because it requires a new feat, more of a sacrifice to hit, and a higher BAB to do it) was crazy--he knew exactly what he was doing, and he could counter any tactics thrown against him by other martial opponents. Grapple, for example, didn't work because even his touch AC was unhittable thanks to ICE, and if they somehow managed to lay a finger on him, he had high Escape Artist, which suffers no penalty from ICEing.

The touch attack isnt unhittable, it is merely harder than normal touch attacks.

Still though, if he was dumping that amount of resources into being defensive then his offense was suffering, perhaps a very great deal, and it still only helps a little or not at all vs. other combat options.

Escape artist is penalized by armor check penalties as well, so was most of his AC coming from those two feats? If so his AC likely wasnt anywhere near as incredible as it could have been otherwise, even without the second feat, but allowed him other options.

Without seeing the full build and the guy in play I cant say a whole lot about it.. other than AC is a great defensive option, but in order to get it really high using the options posted here you have to take some 'serious' hits in the offense department. If you cant kill the enemy it doesnt matter how long it takes them to kill you, you are still dead.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I have made it +1 dodge vs all enemies when not flat footed in my games and it still isnt exactly a powerhouse of an option.

That makes it a really powerful feat--it would become as bread-and-butter as Weapon Focus if you did that, rather than a choice mostly made by those heading up that feat tree.

The touch attack isnt unhittable, it is merely harder than normal touch attacks.

How do you know? I define unhittable as "The opponents he was facing could only hit on a 20".

Still though, if he was dumping that amount of resources into being defensive then his offense was suffering, perhaps a very great deal, and it still only helps a little or not at all vs. other combat options.

Not really--he had a very powerful offense too, and his defense helped enough against the other combat options to render them all ineffective--all of them have that first touch attack (unless I'm forgetting one, which is possible).

Escape artist is penalized by armor check penalties as well, so was most of his AC coming from those two feats? If so his AC likely wasnt anywhere near as incredible as it could have been otherwise, even without the second feat, but allowed him other options.

He didn't wear armour at all. He was also not level 5, but that was a given considering I mentioned Improved Combat Expertise.

Without seeing the full build and the guy in play I cant say a whole lot about it.. other than AC is a great defensive option, but in order to get it really high using the options posted here you have to take some 'serious' hits in the offense department. If you cant kill the enemy it doesnt matter how long it takes them to kill you, you are still dead.

He killed 75 opponents and caused the other 50 to rout, by himself--granted, he was almost killed due to all the archers firing on him at once and thus averaging a natural 20 or two per round...That combat took a long time--good thing I had a program that could do all the rolls for me and pick out the twenties.

 

[Scion]

That makes it a really powerful feat

Actually, it doesnt. All it does is make it easier to use. Overall though the power level of the feat is still pretty low.

How do you know? I define unhittable as "The opponents he was facing could only hit on a 20".

Considering that with many touch attacks you still get your full attack bonus I'd say it would be difficult to get to the 'can only hit on a 20' with what you have listed here. Characters with good bab exactly cancel the bonus from the two feats you listed and attack bonuses from other sources will be roughly equal given the choices.

So, that is how I know. Given the information at hand it would be difficult at best. Especially if you start going for the 'minimum amount of input to move normal attacks up to the need a 20 line' in order to keep your own offensive ablities out of the gutter completely.

You cant have it both ways, unless there is other information that you have not yet put forward about the character?

he had a very powerful offense too

This guy is sounding more and more like a god. He has unlimited resources on all fronts.


As this guy seems to be your main complaint against this houserule perhaps you would be willing to post the build?

He killed 75 opponents and caused the other 50 to rout, by himself--granted, he was almost killed due to all the archers firing on him at once and thus averaging a natural 20 or two per round...That combat took a long time--good thing I had a program that could do all the rolls for me and pick out the twenties.

So he was almost as strong as a windwall spell and was fighting people way, way below his level?

Again, you are making it sound like he had a great deal which is simply not being stated. A real build which could actually be looked at instead of a guy who can apparently do anything would be much more helpful.



Just going by the houserule in this post it is about being able to use combat expertise and get an extra boost while using a shield. Not about improved combat expertise, although the implications can be looked at after determining the balance of the regular feat.

Given that it only works with a shield, which could be considered a weaker build normally, I think it merely helps it move up into the position that it should be: While using a shield and spending appropriate feats you are very hard to hit.

It could very well be that the extra boost should be considered a shield bonus which stacks with the shield bonus of the shield instead of a dodge bonus as it would currently work.

It would be good to find out

 

[Rystil Arden]

As this guy seems to be your main complaint against this houserule perhaps you would be willing to post the build?

No, this guy is not even the tiniest part of my complaint about this houserule. He instead belongs to a separate subcategory of discussion where Elder Basilisk claims that Improved Combat Expertise isn't that useful. If this guy was an example against this house rule, I would have brought him up in a different context, and much earlier too.

So he was almost as strong as a windwall spell and was fighting people way, way below his level?

The opponents ranged from levels 5 to 15, and the character was level 15 (all of them were noncasters). Yes, that means that some of the enemies were his level, though admittedly not many.

This guy is sounding more and more like a god. He has unlimited resources on all fronts.


As this guy seems to be your main complaint against this houserule perhaps you would be willing to post the build?

He was not a god. But he was an Iajutsu Master. I don't have this guy's character sheet written up on my computer (it isn't my PC), but he got his touch AC high enough to be unhittable except on a 20 (though I think a few of his opponents could hit him on as low as an 18, but he took care of them quickly).

Any way, I don't see how your insistence on this (admittedly related but a bit tangential) matter is helping the discussion. If you want to talk about ICE and this PC, let's make another thread, okay?

 

[Scion]

Then your arguement seems to be that the houserule would make shiled users who pick up combat expertise too good at defending themselves.

But, again, all it does it give a boost of between +0 and +5 over the norm. It makes sword and board fighters tougher overall.

A maxed out shield wearing build can sacrifice to hit in order to get an AC which is tough to hit, against certain opponents it will even make them need a natural 20 to succeed.

I personally dont have any problem with a turtle character using a shield being hard to hit though. There are simply too many ways around it, but it is very good for the situation that it is designed for.

Of course, in order to get maximum benefit you really have to hit your attack and damage pretty hard. If you dont want to let your to hit suffer as much then the AC likewise goes down. It is a balancing act.

 

[Rystil Arden]

A maxed out shield wearing build can sacrifice to hit in order to get an AC which is tough to hit, against certain opponents it will even make them need a natural 20 to succeed.

This is misleading: A casual shield-wearing build (anyone who puts a 12 in Dex and buys normal defensive items) can force any opponent of its own level to need a natural 20 to hit, even a totally min-maxed character like the orc half-dragon barbarian with maxed Strength, using the proposed houserule.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

No, this guy is not even the tiniest part of my complaint about this houserule. He instead belongs to a separate subcategory of discussion where Elder Basilisk claims that Improved Combat Expertise isn't that useful. If this guy was an example against this house rule, I would have brought him up in a different context, and much earlier too.

For all that, it still doesn't demonstrate that Improved Combat Expertise is what made the character powerful. It just demonstrates that one character in one game found one situation where it was (supposedly) highly advantageous. (We don't have enough information to judge whether or not the character might actually have come out better with a different build or different tactics). My own experience is that whenever I see a character with ICE, I have pretty much been guaranteed to see a character who is going to take one or two attacks and then sit there doing nothing for the rest of the party while he revels in his "I'm invincible; no-one can hit me--never mind that I'm not doing a darn thing to the enemies who are pounding the rest of you" feeling. The one ICE character who was useful made himself useful with his dread pirate rally ability (and the fact that we were fighting REALLY stupid enemies who kept attacking him).

In the end, your suggestion (take another -2 to hit in order to get +1 or +2 to AC) doesn't throw a bone to shield wielders as much as it offers them a pretty darn worthless feat that wouldn't even be useful in the one example of one encounter in one campaign where ICE was supposedly god-like. You might as well invent a 4 hit point Toughness feat and say "here, if you use a shield, you can have this."

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

This is misleading: A casual shield-wearing build (anyone who puts a 12 in Dex and buys normal defensive items) can force any opponent of its own level to need a natural 20 to hit, even a totally min-maxed character like the orc half-dragon barbarian with maxed Strength, using the proposed houserule.

Not quite. Any build that uses a shield (entailing the sacrifice of damage that might otherwise be available from a two-handed weapon) and picks up Combat Expertise is seriously committed to defense. That's no more a casual shield-wearing build than barbarian-max strength-power attack-greatsword is a casual offensive build.

In any event, though, you're still stuck on the highly misleading 5th level analysis when you maintain that any casual shield-wearing build can force an opponent of his own level to need a natural 20 to hit. That is not true (as my analysis demonstrated) at CR 12. (Furthermore, any built that uses a +1 tower shield and +1 fullplate at level 5 is not a "casual" shield-using build--the character has made some very significant sacrifices by buying and wielding the magic tower shield.

 

[Rystil Arden]

(Furthermore, any built that uses a +1 tower shield and +1 fullplate at level 5 is not a "casual" shield-using build--the character has made some very significant sacrifices by buying and wielding the magic tower shield.

Once again, misleading. As I have stated now three times (and perhaps the third is the charm?) he doesn't even need to have *any* defense-focused magic items.

 

[Rystil Arden]

In the end, your suggestion (take another -2 to hit in order to get +1 or +2 to AC) doesn't throw a bone to shield wielders as much as it offers them a pretty darn worthless feat that wouldn't even be useful in the one example of one encounter in one campaign where ICE was supposedly god-like. You might as well invent a 4 hit point Toughness feat and say "here, if you use a shield, you can have this."

You're missing the point--it's Improved Combat Expertise that can be used with lower BAB if you have a shield (normally taking a -7 to get +7 (or +9 with a tower shield) requires BAB 7, but now it doesn't)