Boots of S&S, Expeditious Retreat

[Demon Knight]

Empower affects variable numeric effects.

Enlarge affects range. (and area of effect I think)

Quicken affects casting time.

All three affect three different things, so the effects apply to the whole spell.

Maximize affects variable numeric effects. Which is why it doesnt enhance Empower as well.

Make sense?

 

[Eldorian]

The empowered portion of the spell is not maximized also. You have to apply every metemagic feat separately. So a maximized empowered magic missile would do 5 + half of 1d4+1 (round down).

That's a rule? Where? Glad I never knew of it, cause it's retarded. For basically triple normal effect, it costs +5 spell levels. Is that so bad?

Take a fireball as a case. If the feats stack in a logical sense, then the fireball deals 90 points of damage. IF they stack RETARDEDly, then it does 60 plus half of 10d6, or about 74 average. Delayed blast fireball, only a level 7 spell unlike this fireball, which clocks in at 8, deals 16d8 or about 72. The fireball has a 4 lower save, and is one higher level, and took 2 feats to make. Sounds resonable to me. The 74 average fireball (retardedball) does 2 more damage, is a higher level, and the save is 4 lower, and took 2 feats to get. Who comes up with this stuff...

Eldorian Antar

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Empower affects variable numeric effects.

Enlarge affects range. (and area of effect I think)

Quicken affects casting time.

All three affect three different things, so the effects apply to the whole spell.

Maximize affects variable numeric effects. Which is why it doesnt enhance Empower as well.

Make sense?

That would make sense. But that isn't the rule they gave us. By saying metamagic always effect the base spell you have these results.

Empower a cone fo cold base spell(current level 10) x1.5 for the 10d6. Range is short. AoE cone, so 25ft+5ft a level(75ft). That is what gets empowered since that is the base spell.

Enlarge effects range(including AoE defined by range like cones) it doubles the range. Again it effects the base spell or (25ft+5ft a level)x2 so now the range is 150 ft. 75 of which gets empowered, since the empower only effect the base spell which is a 75' range.


confusion can now ensue on the quickened, silent, still Magic missile. A nice 7th level spell.(quite weak actually even at its best interpretation)

quicken apply to base spell, its now a FA. the base spell that is.

Silent the base spell is now silent

Still no somatic on base spell.

How do they interact. Does the order matter?

You can come up with 2 interpretations one makes it a Free Action silent still spell.

The other says well the silent and still aspects are applied to a SA spell, and the quicken only quickens the base spell not the modified spell. So the spell fizzles, or its a free aciton to cast the magic missile, but a standard action to keep it silent and stilled.

By saying it always applies to the base spell instead of the modifed spell more problems result than were fixed. the only legitimite problem I can see is a extened, persistent spell. And easy fix is to say hey look they don't stack, ones a pre-req, and there the same effect just ones more potent.

 

[dcollins]

Take a fireball as a case... IF they stack RETARDEDly, then it does 60 plus half of 10d6, or about 74 average.

Note that that's precisely the example given in the last line of the "Maximize Spell" feat, PHB p. 83.

 

[Antikinesis]

Expeditious Retreat won't double your fly speed. ER specifically states you "run in great leaps and bounds". I can't imagine flying in great leaps and bounds...so no, Fly does not stack with ER. The same applies to Boots of S&S. The boots double your NORMAL speed. Flying is not normal when you are under the effect of a Fly spell.

A monks speed is a special case. Boots of S&S and ER will double the monks land speed, but only up to a certain extent. When the monk reaches 9th level, her fast movement is a supernatural ability, which wont be doubled with Boots or ER. If a 9th level monk puts on some Boots of S&S, she either has a speed of 100ft (50 normal * 2).

Once again, ER and Boots of S&S do NOT stack. I'm not sure where I saw it, but I think Boots of S&S was errated to make its doubling an enhancement bonus.

As a DM, I agree. As a player I would argue...

"run in great leaps and bounds" is flavor text only. There is nothing in the spells description that requires land-based movement, or restricts the spells utility for flying subjects. The boots double your "normal" speed, but we have no definition for "normal". The normal speed for a flying medium-sized unladen (i.e., no coconuts. ) player is 90 ft. Flying is perfectly normal when you're under the effects of a Fly spell.

Even though we have an "official" ruling, the doubling (or non-doubling) of a monk's supernatural speed is still a subject of debate.

ER and BoS&S, by the letter of the core rules, do appear to be stackable.

( If ya gonna be a troll.... )

Originally posted by RuminDange
I agree. I'm sure either if it is errate, but just look at the requirements to create boots of S&S. boots of S&S requires ER. Would it allow someone to cast ER on themselves twice. Just by looking at the requirements you should be able to deduce the boots grant an enhancement bonus to speed just as the spell they are based on, therefore no stacking.

As someone else already pointed out, the effects of BoS&S are NOT identical to the effects of ER. The boots do not cast ER on the player, they provide a multiplication factor to the player's speed. There is no mention of an enhancement bonus in the boots' description, and inventing one via "deduction", while perfectly reasonable, is a house rule.

( .... be a BIG troll. )

-AK

 

[kreynolds]

As someone else already pointed out, the effects of BoS&S are NOT identical to the effects of ER.

What does ER do? Double your speed. What do BoS&S do? Double your speed. How are those effects not identical?

 

[Berk]

What does ER do? Double your speed. What do BoS&S do? Double your speed. How are those effects not identical?

They are identical in effect but not in named bonus type. One is unnamed (the boots) and the other is enhancement (expeditious retreat). Now as for letting them stack I still think it is far fetched to let them both stack even though by the rules they should be allowed to be stacked. Just seems silly for them to stack.

 

[kreynolds]

They are identical in effect...

Exactly. Thus my rebuttal when it was said they weren't.

...but not in named bonus type.

I didn't say they were. I get your point, but the name of the effects wasn't in question.

Now as for letting them stack I still think it is far fetched to let them both stack even though by the rules they should be allowed to be stacked. Just seems silly for them to stack.

I agree. I'm rolling with the intent here, among other things.

 

[IceBear]

What kreynolds said

ER doesn't affect someone under the effect of a fly spell, but would if that creature could naturally fly.

ER does not stack with the boots.

IceBear

 

[Demon Knight]

I'm sorry. I just can't see how a spell like Expeditious Retreat would enhance the flying speed of a creature. Even if they fly naturally (like pixies), it's not their feet doing the moving; it's their wings. I know some creatures can fly in other ways (like Will o Wisps), but IMHO, Expeditious Retreat should only affect a creature's land speed.