Bounded Accuracy L&L

[Fenes]

Some people seem to not care whether the end result on a d20 is to roll a 13, as long as they get +53 to the roll, they are happy.

Rolling for a fumble or critical sucks donkey balls, IMO.

That's not going to matter in 5E, since BAB doesn't go up. But at level 20 rolling a die won't really matter anyway when fighting an orc because you have enough hitpoints to ignore the damage he can do, and do enough damage to obliterate it once you hit - which you'll do sooner or later.

It's not the mechanic, it's the idea that the single orc you fought at level 1 won't matter at level 20 which some people oppose - but which is an inherent, unavoidable result of having damage and hitpoints go up with level.

 

[pemerton]

I curious what folks think will be the unintended consequences of bounded accuracy.

Good question.

I'm concerned that low modifiers will generate either a tyranny of ability scores. For example, if you want to play an idiot who still knows a lot about a particular subject, it used to be possible to invest heavily in skill points (or skill focus) and mitigate a weak ability score. As described, an Int 18 sage who never strayed out of the library will still be better at wilderness knowledge. Obviously, a good DM will solve a lot of this with role-playing, but it's an unsatisfying simulation.

I'm not sure about the idiot. But it seems that skills give a +3 bonus - so a character with a 12 INT plus Forbidden Law +3 will be as good as the INT 18 sage, and better than the INT 16 sage.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "solving problems with roleplaying", but one approach to this, as far as lore is concerned, is to bring backgrounds into play more fully.

Page 1 of the DM's Guidelines for the playtest talks about deeming certain tasks impossible. It seems open to the GM to say that a certain piece of Forbidden Lore - say, the secret name of the leader of a particular dark cult - cannot be known except by someone who has read the cult's writings. And then, unless you have a background that let's you stipulate that your PC has read those writings (eg because it gives you training in Forbidden Lore) your PC will actually have to discover the writings in the course of play in order to be given a chance to make a check and work through them to extract the secret name.

The general idea is to use backgrounds and training to do more than just provide bonuses - they open up options that other characters can only open up by actually undergoing a certain experience in the course of play.

Ideally, this would sit within a broader discussion of when to say yes, when to say no, when to say "roll the dice", and how much narrative freedom the players have in respect of all of this. The 4e DMGs have a bit to say about this, but I don't think it's all that strong. At least as far as lore skills are concerned, I think the advice on GMing "Wises" (= Lore) skills in the Burning Wheel Adventure Burner is pretty good, and could usefully be cribbed by the WotC designers.

 

[Steely_Dan]

That's not going to matter in 5E, since BAB doesn't go up. But at level 20 rolling a die won't really matter anyway when fighting an orc because you have enough hitpoints to ignore the damage he can do, and do enough damage to obliterate it once you hit - which you'll do sooner or later.

It's not the mechanic, it's the idea that the single orc you fought at level 1 won't matter at level 20 which some people oppose - but which is an inherent, unavoidable result of having damage and hitpoints go up with level.

And...?

Sorry, but your argument is baffling me.

 

[Fenes]

And...?

Sorry, but your argument is baffling me.

What exactly is unclear? I am stating that as long as damage and hitpoints grow with levels, low-level targets such as an orc will become insignificant at higher levels.

 

[TarionzCousin]

The article leaves me feeling optimistic. I don't know if what they are planning will work out the way they want it to, but I admire their design goals.

... and who knows? Maybe the Wooden Door will one day be as feared a monster as the legendary Gazebo.

 

[Piratecat]

What exactly is unclear? I am stating that as long as damage and hitpoints grow with levels, low-level targets such as an orc will become insignificant at higher levels.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone disagrees or is arguing that. They remain relevant for longer, though. A bunch of orcas at 5th level become glass cannons, but they can still dish out significant damage with great axes.

EDIT: I just noted my typo, but it's making me grin so I'm just going to leave it in. Also, I totally want a killer whale cannon.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Absolutely. I don't think anyone disagrees or is arguing that. They remain relevant for longer, though. A bunch of orcas at 5th level become glass cannons, but they can still dish out significant damage with great axes.

EDIT: I just noted my typo, but it's making me grin so I'm just going to leave it in. Also, I totally want a killer whale cannon.

Orcas with frigging missile launchers under their fins! *
[sblock]

[/sblock]

*) May not be a level-appropriate challenge for 5th level characters.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

The article leaves me feeling optimistic. I don't know if what they are planning will work out the way they want it to, but I admire their design goals.

... and who knows? Maybe the Wooden Door will one day be as feared a monster as the legendary Gazebo.

I'm going to be disappointed now if they don't do a marketing bit with a Wooden Door saying, "I'm a monster. Rawwwrrrr!". Preferably with a gnome woodcarver sidekick.

 

[Najo]

It's unfortunate that the intentions of mentioning the iron bound door got misunderstood. The point in the article was that if you don't improve any area of your character, then it won't automatically improve with your level. Characters remain weak if they don't work on strength. They remain ignorant if they don't learn a skill or raise their wisdom or intelligence. Honestly this was one of the best articles out of wotc yet.

My question to all of you, how do you think they should flatten the math? Should we do away with level bonus altogether or just shrink it? If done away with, how would you handle the bonuses to attack rolls, saving throws and non-skill checks? If skills still have ranks or other bonuses, but no bonus from level, then how should attacks and such get bonuses without becoming mandatory feat or class feature taxes? What do you guys think is the best way to handle it?

 

[Campbell]

My question to all of you, how do you think they should flatten the math? Should we do away with level bonus altogether or just shrink it? If done away with, how would you handle the bonuses to attack rolls, saving throws and non-skill checks? If skills still have ranks or other bonuses, but no bonus from level, then how should attacks and such get bonuses without becoming mandatory feat or class feature taxes? What do you guys think is the best way to handle it?

My preference would be to not have accuracy bonuses on a set schedule and not delivered in the same way for all classes.

• Fighters would gain a persistant bonus to all weapon attacks to represent their dedication to martial training.
• War domain clerics depend on personal buff spells.
• Rogues acquire abilities that help them to more readily hide/gain advantage.
• Pure magic users don't become better with weapons but get better with their magical attacks - increased saves.
• Rangers could gain a redesigned hunter's quarry. Their single minded devotion to hunting down their prey let's them attack a designated target with extra ferocity, but remains in effect until the target dies or they have a chance to clear their mind (a minute of quiet contemplation). You could even tie it into an almost supernatural ability to track down their foes.
• Paladins channel divine might through their steel. If I was going to design a paladin that was different from a battle cleric I'd have them fully embrace Channel Divinity with different blessings based on chivalrous virtues.

That would be far more flavorful and lead to classes that really played differently with differing strengths/weaknesses. The idea is that different classes get better at their core competencies through leveling, not everything.