Bounded Accuracy L&L

[Steely_Dan]

At the very least, while I expect that SOME magic items will still give bonuses to attack rolls or AC, it won't be expected that a level 15 character have a +x weapon to stay competitive.

Yes, as I have previously said, the idea of +1 magic weapon being huge is interesting.

 

[tomBitonti]

When does this become "careers"?

Hi,

Not disliking the flattened math (one of my almost immediate desires, with 4E, is to cancel out all of the per level bonuses), but, if you entirely remove the per level bonuses, you seem to end up with a career based advancement, with smallish increases as particular benefits purchased with experience.

I think that that is a valid advancement scheme, however, it does seem to move away from the simple level based advancement that has been at the heart of D&D.

In my view, a game like WHFRP (the newest edition) goes entirely to the career based scheme, while 4E went entirely to a per level advancement scheme. With the new scheme be a bit more of a hybrid?

TomB

 

[Thalain]

As good as bounded accuracy is with a new party created for 5E, one of the biggest problems with this system is portability - an issue already painfully neglected in the 3E to 4E conversion. There was just no way to bring an old character into the new world and exactly the same thing will hold for 5E if the early indications hold true - any character beyond 7th or 10th level (and those are the ones we invested lots of time and energy into) can't make the transition, meaning it just isn't possible to convert your campaign as it was done from 2E to 3E where you could adjust sheets and monsters and make the switch mid-campaign and even mid-adventure. In an edition meant to unify all play styles, I would expect conversion be one of the main selling points: taking your characters and campaigns into the new game and never looking back.

 

[Campbell]

As good as bounded accuracy is with a new party created for 5E, one of the biggest problems with this system is portability - an issue already painfully neglected in the 3E to 4E conversion. There was just no way to bring an old character into the new world and exactly the same thing will hold for 5E if the early indications hold true - any character beyond 7th or 10th level (and those are the ones we invested lots of time and energy into) can't make the transition, meaning it just isn't possible to convert your campaign as it was done from 2E to 3E where you could adjust sheets and monsters and make the switch mid-campaign and even mid-adventure. In an edition meant to unify all play styles, I would expect conversion be one of the main selling points: taking your characters and campaigns into the new game and never looking back.

The conversion from 2e to 3e wasn't actually that smooth. A mid level 2e fighter could hit just about anything multiple times, with a good Constitution score had hp that matched the strongest monsters in the game, had an AC in plate that rivaled many high HD monsters, almost always made their saves and had plenty of NWPs. The 6th level Dwarven Fighter I play in a 2e game right now would change dramatically if the game converted to 3e.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

One difficulty I have, is that I don't think I like worlds where the most powerful BBEGs, such as the Tarrasque or its equivalent, can be defeated by armies. I want only heroes to be able to fight these things. Cuz that's cool.

That is what Damage Resistance and Regeneration is good for, as a coarse means to qualitatively separate the men from the boys.

I think armies usefully assisting the real heroes fight the Tarrasque is a great thing, and it would be very sad such were outright impossible.

I always imagined that the original inspiration around Chainmail/proto-D&D was silly ideas like "What if William the Conqueror were facing the Necromancer Harald and his elite vampire bodyguard? Good thing Grendel is here to help."

 

[UngeheuerLich]

They might have their attack bonus a bit lower, but they'll make up for it in other ways. The barbarian will start raging and have a crazy Strength bonus, the ranger will have cool bonuses to mobility, ranged combat, and/or two-weapon fighting, and so on.



I'm guessing that a either +2 longsword will no longer add +2 to hit, or the +x magic item system will go away altogether. At the very least, while I expect that SOME magic items will still give bonuses to attack rolls or AC, it won't be expected that a level 15 character have a +x weapon to stay competitive.

I in no way believe, they will do away with magic weapons. But magic weapons should be back to where they used to be: a magic weapon +1 is terribly exciting.

Actually it was Baldur´s gate that made low magic weapons very common. And I noticed players, who played that game expecting to get them very early on.

I would also like drow weapons lose their magic again if they are exposed to sunlight. I really did like that flavour (hated it as a PC... but it was flavourful)

So please, don´t remove magic weapons. They are an essential part of DnD, but also, please make them not the default. Try to integrate magic weapons into the CR system. This way everone can have as much magic as they like.

Something like:
If the party has an average magic item bonus of +1, put an extra monster per 4 PCs into the fight.

 

[DNH]

I in no way believe, they will do away with magic weapons. But magic weapons should be back to where they used to be: a magic weapon +1 is terribly exciting.

Actually it was Baldur´s gate that made low magic weapons very common. And I noticed players, who played that game expecting to get them very early on.

I would also like drow weapons lose their magic again if they are exposed to sunlight. I really did like that flavour (hated it as a PC... but it was flavourful)

So please, don´t remove magic weapons. They are an essential part of DnD, but also, please make them not the default. Try to integrate magic weapons into the CR system. This way everone can have as much magic as they like.

Something like:
If the party has an average magic item bonus of +1, put an extra monster per 4 PCs into the fight.

We should look at what has been happening with magic weapons (and magic items in general) in 4e. We were initially given a vast array of the things, plenty of them in the PHBs and two full hardback volumes too (the AV books), and they were nothing special - just lots of general items, most of them available in several versions (levels of power). Fast forward a bit to later publications (Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium, specifically) and magic items come alive. They are more interesting, have more of a story behind them (many have sidebars accompanying them) and seem to be more ... magical. I am talking fluff, rather than crunch here.

My point is that I hope that this approach, making magic items more magical, continues into the next edition.

 

[Andor]

As good as bounded accuracy is with a new party created for 5E, one of the biggest problems with this system is portability - an issue already painfully neglected in the 3E to 4E conversion. There was just no way to bring an old character into the new world and exactly the same thing will hold for 5E if the early indications hold true - any character beyond 7th or 10th level (and those are the ones we invested lots of time and energy into) can't make the transition, meaning it just isn't possible to convert your campaign as it was done from 2E to 3E where you could adjust sheets and monsters and make the switch mid-campaign and even mid-adventure. In an edition meant to unify all play styles, I would expect conversion be one of the main selling points: taking your characters and campaigns into the new game and never looking back.

D&D characters have never been as edition portable as, say, Hero system characters are.

If you want to jump ships mid-stream you do what we've always done. Reinvent your character in the new system. You use the same race and class and after that you fill in the blanks to match your expectation of the character and the level the GM assigned for the switch.

In all probability the new edition will be a better match for the character in your imagination in some ways, and worse in other.

 

[tlantl]

Have you ever played D&D? Any edition? Where you struggle with an orc at level 1, yet after a year of slaughtering monsters, killing the exact same type of orc is now easy? That's called leveling up.

At the highest level you are supposed to be superman, kicking demonlords around. 4E even has a "demigod" path to take.

Do you really want your character to not advance in any way at all? To never progress from a young fighter to a grizzled swordmaster? From apprentice mage to archwizard?

This right here is my biggest problem with any game using levels for advancement. At some point you stop being reasonably normal with a focused skill set to being an unstoppable force that has the capability to run rough shod over the rest of the world. This causes no end of grief for me and other DMs I know.

If the world stays relevant longer then I don't have to fight the inner war of allowing the game to progress beyond a certain level or starting anew. 3e was so stupid this way that I never had a group go beyond 8th level and eventually stopped playing it. There were a lot of things about 3e that you didn't really see until you played for a while that really irritated me, the assumption that the only complete character was the 20th level character being one of them.

I could really care less if the character gets more than a slight increase in power in those twenty or thirty levels, I'd prefer if they didn't. From the look of this game from it's play test it's not going to be any better than the others, only different. I mean wizards getting +6 attack bonuses at first level and the double digit starting HP are pretty good indicators that this is going to be another "modern suck game".

 

[Fenes]

This right here is my biggest problem with any game using levels for advancement. At some point you stop being reasonably normal with a focused skill set to being an unstoppable force that has the capability to run rough shod over the rest of the world. This causes no end of grief for me and other DMs I know.

That's D&D for you, since the start, through any edition.