[BOVD] Satan, a former Archdevil?

[Dragongirl]

Without any 'real world' story behind him, iirc from the dnd3e chat you and Clark gave. Sounds like a cheap publicity stunt to me. If you're going to give us Satan, give us Satan, not some jackass devil with that name slapped on for kewlness factor.

Gee, don't hold back, tells us what you really think.

 

[chatdemon]

Gee, don't hold back, tells us what you really think.

How original....
Do me a favor, don't milk your post count at my expense. Thanks.

Now, as to my post, I think the fact that Necromancer Games wants to print a devil named Satan, with little or no connection to the real world devil by that name is 100% relevant to this thread, and, remember, I'm not the one who brought their product up.

When you've got guys like Chris Pramas and Erik Mona researching their subject matter to death (in Legions of Hell and Armies of the Abyss), throwing together some poorly reasearched devil just for shock value or coolness factor is not only bad design, it's, IMO, an insult to the folks who actually do research and respect their subject matter.

 

[Cheiromancer]

As appropriate as it may seem for a thread about Satan, there is no need for flames. Nobody is out to get anybody, but it is easy to misinterpret posts as being less than friendly. Let's all just cool down and take a deep breath, and assume that other posters are basically well disposed towards us.

Now, back to the topic of Satan:

I think that the book of Job provides an interesting insight into the mythology of Satan. Satan seems like some kind of special prosecutor, whose job is to point out the offenses of humanity. In fact, I think the word satan means "accusor."

Now somewhere along the line Satan went bad. It would be like a prosecutor trying to suborn witnesses, or to cover up exonerating evidence, or engaging in entrapment and other 'dirty tricks.' Satan becomes a being who tempts humanity, and who is an enemy of humanity, and, ultimately, of God (or, in Green Ronin terms, the "Lords of Good.")

According to this theory, Satan's fall would occur after the fall of Iblis (who fell around the creation of humanity), or even after the fall of Semyaza (the chief of the angels who "lusted after the daughters of men").

One thing I don't understand is Asmodeus. He is mentioned in the book of Tobit (in Catholic Bibles, or in the apocrypha of Protestant Bibles), but I don't see how he became identified as the King of Hell. Anybody know of other references or associations with Asmodeus?

Ditto for Mephistopheles. Any pre-Faustian references to him?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Cheiromancer mate!

Now, back to the topic of Satan:

I think that the book of Job provides an interesting insight into the mythology of Satan. Satan seems like some kind of special prosecutor, whose job is to point out the offenses of humanity. In fact, I think the word satan means "accusor."

"Adversary".

One thing I don't understand is Asmodeus. He is mentioned in the book of Tobit (in Catholic Bibles, or in the apocrypha of Protestant Bibles), but I don't see how he became identified as the King of Hell. Anybody know of other references or associations with Asmodeus?

Asmodeus is a perversion of a number of words (originally Persian 'Aeshma Deva' one of a number of creations of Ahriman).

The reason Asmodeus became identified as the King of Hell is because there are multiple Kings of Hell in esoteric lore.

In fact there are supposedly 77 major 'devils'

- Emperor = Lucifer
- Four Great Kings (of the North; West; South and Eastern Regions of Hell) - including Mammon.

Then next we have the 72 Spirits of Solomon.

- Three Chiefest Kings - including Asmodeus.
- Sixty-Nine other Nobles of varying rank.

So Asmodeus is one of the 'Chiefest Kings'. Someone reading about him could have come across the title 'King of Hell' and adopted that.

Ditto for Mephistopheles. Any pre-Faustian references to him?

No.

 

[Azure Trance]

I wonder, UK, where you got to go to find information like that. I assume you know the similar hierarchy for the celestial host?

 

[kingpaul]

According to this theory, Satan's fall would occur after the fall of Iblis (who fell around the creation of humanity), or even after the fall of Semyaza (the chief of the angels who "lusted after the daughters of men").

An interesting theory I once heard was that it was Satan's fall that caused the deaths of the dinosaurs, so God started again with re-creating the Earth.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Azure Trance!

I wonder, UK, where you got to go to find information like that.

Either in the appropriate occult books or websites:

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/default.html

Some absolutely fantastic articles on the Devil and the occult in general.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/

Some really obscure references. Very good indeed.

http://www.meta-religion.com/HomeEnglish.htm

Especially notable is the Magick Section. The book of Goetia details the Hierarchy of the Devils that I previously mentioned.

I'll have a full bibliography and list of appropriate websites in the Immortals Handbook.

I assume you know the similar hierarchy for the celestial host?

Of course. There are a number of variations on the celestial hierarchy - though the most common one is:

http://www.oldcrows.net/~myyah/ANGEL/class.html

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Why do we need to try and interject Christianity into D&D mythology anymore than it already is? I don't mind stats for Lucifer, but why make him a carbon copy of Lucifer from Christian Mythology? I for one don't really like the whole fallen angels slant in Legions of Hell, can't say I really cared for the work in Guide to Hell book Parmas did for 2e either. The new devils are cool though and suggest some interesting adventure ideas. Good book if only for the stats and stuff.

 

[Cheiromancer]

An interesting theory I once heard was that it was Satan's fall that caused the deaths of the dinosaurs, so God started again with re-creating the Earth.

Well, there are two creation stories in genesis. In the first one everything starts off wet (Gen 1:2), and people were made last. In the second story everything starts dry (Gen 2:5), and people were made first. The story of what happened in between might have been *snipped*. Kinda like the story of Adam's first wife, Lilith, doesn't appear in scripture.

One can get into trouble quoting scripture to support a D&D cosmology, but making a D&D cosmology which is consistent with these bits of esoterica can be quite fun.

For instance, suppose that the first creation story, in which God says "let us make humanity in our image" (Gen 1:26) is really the creation of the div (according to Green Ronin cosmology), the precursors of the djinn, efreeti (and possibly the pit fiends and balors too- ever notice how they kinda look alike?). The second creation story, where Adam is made from clay, refers to what we understand as humanity, and occurs after the great revolt.

One could have one (or more) falls both before and after the fall of Iblis. One such fall (and its aftermath) could have prompted Gian ben Gian to rebel against Heaven. Iblis puts down the rebellion, then rebels himself when he sees the "children of clay" who are born in the second creation.

Subsequent to Iblis's fall, it might be prophecied that one of the great Solars will someday lead yet another rebellion, but no-one knows who this might be, or whether the plotting has begun in earnest.

It'd be neat to weave together a consistent narrative that combines elements of jewish, christian, muslim and zoroasterian mythology. Just presume that the myths sometimes assign the same name to two different entities, or different names to the same entity, allow two creations, multiple falls... I betcha it could work. I hope Upper Krust gives a reference for Asmodeus and company.

edit: two other posts while I was typing this. Including Upper Krust. Yay!

 

[Azure Trance]

Why do we need to try and interject Christianity into D&D mythology anymore than it already is? I don't mind stats for Lucifer, but why make him a carbon copy of Lucifer from Christian Mythology? I for one don't really like the whole fallen angels slant in Legions of Hell, can't say I really cared for the work in Guide to Hell book Parmas did for 2e either. The new devils are cool though and suggest some interesting adventure ideas. Good book if only for the stats and stuff.

If only because that's why they sort of exist ... although other variations of Lucifer would be nice, didn't Demons & Devils cover the other variations of fiends in different religions? I agree with Cheir that weaving in real life elements can make it more interesting, since they have a basis instead of just making up something off the wall (Although it worked for heavy movers like Grazzt and Orcus though, which I'm pretty sure is made up like Lolth is, but you never know)