[BOVD] Satan, a former Archdevil?

[Nightfall]

Easy fellas. Let's not start a flame war here.

 

[Henry]

Let me Sliiiiiiiiide myself in here for just a minute --

I would appreciate no escalation of flameish words, here. There is no reason to resort to calling someone else's work asinine, albeit in a very roundabout way. Chatdemon, I appreciate your elaboration of your thoughts in your last post, but I hope you can understand your first words sounded a bit too harsh for reasonable criticism.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I myself will take as many stat interpretations of legendary and mythic figures as I can get my hands on - maybe I don't like legions of the abyss's take on things, and prefer a different look.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

No, what you're overlooking is the fact that those old Dragon magazine article did include bits of real world myth, and explained in depth why Satan was overthrown in the D&D cosmology and how Asmodeus rose to power. That is my complaint, Scott and Clark's statements to me directly that the write up of Satan/Lucifer in ToH would not include any real tie in to the judeao-christian figure who that personage is based on.

Isn't that EXACTLY what's included in the writeup of Lucifer??

From the ToH Preview
Lucifer has many names: The Prince of Lies, The Prince of Darkness, The Adversary, The Prince of Light, and Satan. It is believed that Lucifer was the first devil in existence, having been cast down from the heavens when he challenged the rulings of the gods of law and good. After being cast down, Lucifer built his palace of iron and basalt on the lowest and darkest plane of a region he called Hell.

He divided this region into distinct planes and appointed eight of his closest allies to rule, one to a plane. Each lord was allowed to mold and shape his domain as he saw fit, but all paid homage to Lucifer.

At some point, or so one version of the story goes, one of the devils, Asmodeus, felt he could do a better job of ruling Hell. He put into motion a plan that would align each oof the other rulers with him and with the gained power place him on the Throne of Hell, therebuy usurping Lucifer's power. With promises of power, each devil lord allied with Asmodeus, save for one. Belial remained loyal to Lucifer and fought against the infernal armies of the other collective lords to hold fast Lucifer's crown to the rulership of Hell. In the end, Belial and Lucifer were both beaten and outcast from rulership.

That is but one of several versions of the story of Hell's rulers. Another tells that Lucifer is the supreme ruler of Hell. In the battle against Asmodeus and the other arch devils, Belial (who sides with Lucifer in this version as well) and Lucifer destroy Asmodeus and several of theother arch devils. In their place, Lucifer appoints new rulers and remains on the throne, ever distrustful of those in power and always seeking to secure his place on the Throne of Hell.

 

[chatdemon]

Meepo> As I said, I was basing my criticism on what I was told by Scott and Clark in the enworld chat they gave about the book. If the finished product differs, I offer my apologies to them both. I haven't looked into the product.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Well, since there's a preview of it up on their website, it would be best to look at that before you go on insulting their work, I would think. They could very well have misunderstood your question in the chat room.

 

[jasamcarl]

I've talked to Erik Mona about the books at some length. Erik also included a bibliography of his sources. The amount of reasearch is well documented for everyone to see.

I base my criticism of the ToH Lucifer/Satan on the same grounds. I asked Scott and Clark about it at a ENWorld/#dnd3e chat.

If it comes off as rude, oh well, sue me. I think there is ample evidence to support the point I was making.

Uhhh..yeah, but please explain to me how 'thorough' research reflects on the quality of the product at all; or how the use of inflammatory, derogatory terms such as 'insult' have any reality on this asinine fetish with mythological 'canon'.

 

[chatdemon]

Uhhh..yeah, but please explain to me how 'thorough' research reflects on the quality of the product at all;

.

When you're dealing with material that is rooted in real world myth and religion, research is a very real measure of the quality of said work. If I was to make a guidebook to medieval France for d20, and did no research, just making things up as I go and then calling it France, wouldn't you agree that a researched effort to cover the same subject would result in a better product?

As I said, Meepo points out that the finished product does offer some background on Satan/Lucifer that is grounded in his 'real' story, and on that basis I withdraw my complaint, which was based on outdated information.

or how the use of inflammatory, derogatory terms such as 'insult' have any reality on this asinine fetish with mythological 'canon'

Speaking of insulting, remember that to many people, Christian and Jewish, not to mention Satanist, Satan/Lucifer is a very real part of their religion, and dismissing it as "mythological 'canon'" is a bit condescending.

 

[Grazzt]

Now, as to my post, I think the fact that Necromancer Games wants to print a devil named Satan, with little or no connection to the real world devil by that name is 100% relevant to this thread, and, remember, I'm not the one who brought their product up.

When you've got guys like Chris Pramas and Erik Mona researching their subject matter to death (in Legions of Hell and Armies of the Abyss), throwing together some poorly reasearched devil just for shock value or coolness factor is not only bad design, it's, IMO, an insult to the folks who actually do research and respect their subject matter.

...nevermind...just not worth the trouble.

 

[chatdemon]

Why gee, my complaint isn't worth your trouble, how nice....

Having had the opportunity to read that before you editted it though, let me just say, read my later retraction and apology after it was pointed out that contrary to what I was told, the book does contain the background I was talking about.

 

[Henry]

I can't speak for Scott, but I appreciate the retraction and apology, Rich.

Does anyone have other thoughts on the depictions of the big "D" in Tome of Horrors or BoVD?