[BOVD] Satan, a former Archdevil?

[S'mon]

Why do we need to try and interject Christianity into D&D mythology anymore than it already is? I don't mind stats for Lucifer, but why make him a carbon copy of Lucifer from Christian Mythology? I for one don't really like the whole fallen angels slant in Legions of Hell, can't say I really cared for the work in Guide to Hell book Parmas did for 2e either. The new devils are cool though and suggest some interesting adventure ideas. Good book if only for the stats and stuff.

You don't "need" to, but my campaign world (for instance) has Christianity as one of the mythoi, a design choice. In my campaign universe Satan is imprisoned, as per Dante, although he did once nearly get free... (it was a Fergus adventure, Craig - luckily there was an NPC on hand to save the day after Fergus screwed up!).

 

[S'mon]

(Although it worked for heavy movers like Grazzt and Orcus though, which I'm pretty sure is made up like Lolth is, but you never know)

Grazzt is made up, Orcus is a demon from Celtic mythology I believe. Demogorgon appears in Milton along with Chaos & Old Night.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Simon!

Grazzt is made up, Orcus is a demon from Celtic mythology I believe. Demogorgon appears in Milton along with Chaos & Old Night.

Orcus is Roman.

Demogorgon actually predates Milton by at least a millenia. The scholar Lactantius wrote about him.

I can't find the actual reference (the text is rather long winded) but I have been informed its buried in there somewhere:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/07011.htm

Incidently I think Lactantius has seven books...

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0701.htm

...though you would think the reference would be in the 'Book of False Gods' (Book 1, as per my initial link)?

 

[MerakSpielman]

And Lucifer (or Satan if you prefer) is gonna be detailed in the TOme of Horrors. (Sorry couldn't help it.)

Does that mean they're going to have detailed stats for "God" as well? I suppose that wouldn't quite fit with the "Tome of Horrors" concept, though (no bad jokes here... ). But really, what use is a Saten if you don't have a God?

 

[Qlippoth]

If only because that's why they sort of exist ... although other variations of Lucifer would be nice, didn't Demons & Devils cover the other variations of fiends in different religions? I agree with Cheir that weaving in real life elements can make it more interesting, since they have a basis instead of just making up something off the wall (Although it worked for heavy movers like Grazzt and Orcus though, which I'm pretty sure is made up like Lolth is, but you never know)

IIRC, the Book of Vile Darkness mentions Graz'zt as a possible analogue to the "Black Man" of witch folklore.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

How original....
Do me a favor, don't milk your post count at my expense. Thanks.

Yes, instead we should milk our post counts at the expense of Necromancer Games.

Now, as to my post, I think the fact that Necromancer Games wants to print a devil named Satan, with little or no connection to the real world devil by that name is 100% relevant to this thread, and, remember, I'm not the one who brought their product up.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the appendix in my Bible that had the "real-world" stats.

When you've got guys like Chris Pramas and Erik Mona researching their subject matter to death (in Legions of Hell and Armies of the Abyss), throwing together some poorly reasearched devil just for shock value or coolness factor is not only bad design, it's, IMO, an insult to the folks who actually do research and respect their subject matter.

I'm sorry, but this is really insulting. It's a book of freaking monster stats. How do YOU know how much research they did? Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a Green Ronin fanboy as anyone else, but you're just being plain rude. Necromancer's Lucifer stays pretty close to original mythology while attempting to align it with 25 years of D&D cosmology which places Asmodeus at the top of the heap.

 

[Olive]

It's a book of freaking monster stats. How do YOU know how much research they did? Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a Green Ronin fanboy as anyone else, but you're just being plain rude. Necromancer's Lucifer stays pretty close to original mythology while attempting to align it with 25 years of D&D cosmology which places Asmodeus at the top of the heap.

well.. the armies of the abyss book has some pretty serious not stat info on the domons and their worship... so it's got a bit more goin on.

but what chatdemon's slam of the ToH Satan seems to forget is that they're pretty much just converting the old Dragon mag stats for Satan... so if he's got issues with it, then he should take it up with who ever wrote that...

(actually having just looked at my ToH preview pdf, it doesn't have Satan in it, it has Lucifer and it doesn't seem to be a conversion... so what the hell do i know!!! i'm still pretty sure that Satan is a conversion...)

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

well.. the armies of the abyss book has some pretty serious not stat info on the domons and their worship... so it's got a bit more goin on.

but what chatdemon's slam of the ToH Satan seems to forget is that they're pretty much just converting the old Dragon mag stats for Satan... so if he's got issues with it, then he should take it up with who ever wrote that...

(actually having just looked at my ToH preview pdf, it doesn't have Satan in it, it has Lucifer and it doesn't seem to be a conversion... so what the hell do i know!!! i'm still pretty sure that Satan is a conversion...)

Satan and Lucifer are the same being. It says in the preview "Lucifer has many names: The Prince of Lies, The Prince of Darkness, The Adversary, The Prince of Light, and Satan."

 

[chatdemon]

I'm sorry, but this is really insulting. It's a book of freaking monster stats. How do YOU know how much research they did? Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a Green Ronin fanboy as anyone else, but you're just being plain rude. Necromancer's Lucifer stays pretty close to original mythology while attempting to align it with 25 years of D&D cosmology which places Asmodeus at the top of the heap.

I've talked to Erik Mona about the books at some length. Erik also included a bibliography of his sources. The amount of reasearch is well documented for everyone to see.

I base my criticism of the ToH Lucifer/Satan on the same grounds. I asked Scott and Clark about it at a ENWorld/#dnd3e chat.

If it comes off as rude, oh well, sue me. I think there is ample evidence to support the point I was making.

 

[chatdemon]

but what chatdemon's slam of the ToH Satan seems to forget is that they're pretty much just converting the old Dragon mag stats for Satan... so if he's got issues with it, then he should take it up with who ever wrote that...

No, what you're overlooking is the fact that those old Dragon magazine article did include bits of real world myth, and explained in depth why Satan was overthrown in the D&D cosmology and how Asmodeus rose to power. That is my complaint, Scott and Clark's statements to me directly that the write up of Satan/Lucifer in ToH would not include any real tie in to the judeao-christian figure who that personage is based on.

I have no issues with the power level, abilities, whatever ToH gives Lucifer/Satan, my complaint is solely aimed at the fact that the real world tie ins were ignored, while other publishers have made efforts to thorroughly research their material.