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D&D 5E Boy, that escalated quickly...

Sweet. Thanks for taking the time to so coherently explicate your assumptious condescension. +1

So apparently the mere suggestion that the fault might lie with the DM, and not just the players, is something you automatically take offense to. Good for you. And thanks for reducing my post to just a few words that you cherry picked, instead of carefully reading over the opening sentence, which outlines that I'm merely taking a guess at what is going wrong.

If you're not open to criticism, how can you ever grow as a DM?
 

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Uchawi

First Post
I believe it is a DM issues versus the system. But reliable challenge ratings or levels does make it easier for the DM to judge a specific monster against the party. And one thing I did learn from 4E is to create an encounter that spans multiple rooms or areas, and place conditions on when re-enforcements make sense.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
So to describe it a bit, I'd say that if you wanted to call down the reinforcements in 4e, you had to go a beyond the game's assumptions.
Not really. Maybe go beyond your assumptions about the game's assumptions. ;P

'Waves' were a definite option in encounter design, one published modules were known to use. They most often involved minions (the sorts of guards and other mooks you'd have scattered all over the dungeon, only to converge when there was trouble), but could be anything. Heck, the very first 4e adventure, sucky though it was (and it was every bit as bad as HotDQ), had several encounters like that.

You'd have to answer questions like "when do I get my encounter power back?"
When you took a short rest, like always. "When do powers that last the whole encounter end?" was a slightly less unambiguous question, and the answer was after 5 minutes. So, generally, either you got in a short rest & recharged your encounter powers, or any whole-encounter effects you put up were still running.

you had clear XP totals to adhere to for a "balanced" encounter
Guidelines, yes, and they did work pretty well. But you didn't need to 'adhere' to them, they were guidelines, not rules.
even stretched over multiple sites and monsters, something within the XP budget was still "one encounter" (even if it was staggered or something) as far as resource management was concerned.
Naturally. If you had an encounter that could bring in waves, you'd want to consider the possibility of all the waves coming in. If you were running 'tailored' encounters, you could budget it as an 'easy,' under-level encounter, with a worst-case scenario that went well over-level. If you were running 'status-quo,' you didn't even do that, you created & populated the area, and the guideline just gave you a good idea whether the party could handle it or not. You could also pull cute things like interspersing group skill checks to avoid attracting another wave, or run the whole thing as a challenge, with each wave coming on a failure...

In 3e, it was probably worse, because the swinginess meant that going beyond the "one big baddie" model might be a cakewalk or it might be a TPK in the making.
Only in the sense that the guidelines were blurrier and less dependable. You could still either try to stay within them when designing an encounter, or just place monsters based on the setting & situation and use the guidelines to get a rough idea of how challenging they'd be. Same with 5e. Same with any set of encounter-building guidelines, really, the only difference being how relatively applicable, difficult to use, and dependable they were.

Encounter-design guidelines are just a tool. Having a more dependable, easier-to-use tool may mean you don't throw it across the room as often, but you're never forced to use it.

By the same token, in 5e, you can always use the encounter design system, even if it doesn't always deliver the exact challenge in practice that it might indicate in theory. Waves, for instance, while they pile up the degree of challenge much like a single encounter, don't benefit as much from the impact of numeric superiority under Bounded Accuracy, so, if you can be confident that wave 1 will be wiped out before wave 3 arrives, there's no need to apply the multiplier for the total of all 3 waves...

How do you "slam them prone" without some significant investment?
The same way you grabbed them in the first place: by blowing an attack on it. Anyone can do it. Of course you haven't "taken them out of the fight" remotely, but if they want to get away they have to waste an action escaping and 10' of movement standing up, so it's as close as you get to being 'sticky' in 5e, you just give up two attacks to do it.
 

BryonD

Hero
Just as long as we dont go back to the good old days of doing extra damage because you hit them really hard or because you stab them in the eye.
I'm not sure what you mean. In 5E higher STR = higher damage and/or higher DEX = higher damage. It seems really clear that "harder" and/or "more vital spot" are the implied reasons.

And I think Great Weapon Fighting is the RAW 5E stand-in for Power Attack, particularly given that the trade off between to hit and damage is much different in Bounded Accuracy.

If you for some reason dislike the mechanic of power attack, then so be it. A lot of people dislike the whole 3E system. Its all good.
But the underlying concept of harder = extra damage is right there is the fundamentals of 5E.
 

Hussar

Legend
Today's session was a perfect example of why things escalate.

We spent two hours of session time, and several days of game time attempting to come up with a plan to infiltrate a fortified home. Ten feet into the grounds of said home and we fail a single skill check and alert the entire home. There was no chance of a failure resulting in anything else. Despite it being very late at night, there were what, over a dozen guards on active patrol? In a manor in the middle of a city that had seen no fighting in weeks? It didn't matter which skill check we failed, it was inevitable that we would fail and the first failure escalates the entire encounter.

Why did we bother pissing about for two hours? Total and complete waste of table time. We should have just marched right up, kicked in the front door and started killing everything. Same results without two hours of wasted time.

This is why scenarios keep escalating like this. If you don't want the scenarios to escalate, you need to provide scenarios with reasonable, and reasonably obvious, means of preventing that escalation. Otherwise, we'll get the exact same result every single time.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Today's session was a perfect example of why things escalate.

We spent two hours of session time, and several days of game time attempting to come up with a plan to infiltrate a fortified home. Ten feet into the grounds of said home and we fail a single skill check and alert the entire home.

I'll note something here that is a big problem with a *lot* of systems, not just 5e.

Scenario: PCs are trying to sneak into suspicious mansion. 2 guards are awake and somewhat alert, if they raise the alarm the PCs are in big trouble.

The problem is that *every* PC has to make their stealth check! Odds are they aren't all stealthy, but even if they are, the odds of *every* one making their check is quite low... As a result, sneaking in attempts are best left to a single stealth specialist. It's frustrating because it means the stealth option is almost off the table...
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
This is why scenarios keep escalating like this. If you don't want the scenarios to escalate, you need to provide scenarios with reasonable, and reasonably obvious, means of preventing that escalation. Otherwise, we'll get the exact same result every single time.
The best way to sneak in is to always bring a cardboard box.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Today's session was a perfect example of why things escalate.

We spent two hours of session time, and several days of game time attempting to come up with a plan to infiltrate a fortified home. Ten feet into the grounds of said home and we fail a single skill check and alert the entire home. There was no chance of a failure resulting in anything else. Despite it being very late at night, there were what, over a dozen guards on active patrol? In a manor in the middle of a city that had seen no fighting in weeks? It didn't matter which skill check we failed, it was inevitable that we would fail and the first failure escalates the entire encounter.

Why did we bother pissing about for two hours? Total and complete waste of table time. We should have just marched right up, kicked in the front door and started killing everything. Same results without two hours of wasted time.

This is why scenarios keep escalating like this. If you don't want the scenarios to escalate, you need to provide scenarios with reasonable, and reasonably obvious, means of preventing that escalation. Otherwise, we'll get the exact same result every single time.

This is a good instance to implement a SSSorDie. If you have to make X number of checks to do a thing, and any one of them could result in the whole scenario going topsy, then statistically you ought to not even bother, because you're not going to succeed ALL of those checks. So build in some fudge room. You fail your sneak, someone hears you, quick toss a rock into a shrub in the other direction, okay you made that check, well, now further stealth checks are harder, but you didn't completely fail the whole thing with one bad check. Fail your stealth? Fail to distract the guards? Fail to do anything else that could save your butt at the last minute? Okay, I can reasonably see that constituting a failed scenario.
 

Jabborwacky

First Post
This is a good instance to implement a SSSorDie. If you have to make X number of checks to do a thing, and any one of them could result in the whole scenario going topsy, then statistically you ought to not even bother, because you're not going to succeed ALL of those checks. So build in some fudge room. You fail your sneak, someone hears you, quick toss a rock into a shrub in the other direction, okay you made that check, well, now further stealth checks are harder, but you didn't completely fail the whole thing with one bad check. Fail your stealth? Fail to distract the guards? Fail to do anything else that could save your butt at the last minute? Okay, I can reasonably see that constituting a failed scenario.

Here are some other methods of getting passed all that security from a security expert's point of view!

1. Find the Weakest Link: Do one of the guards hate their boss? Are they not getting paid enough for their hard work? Find that unlucky guy or gal and convince them to give you access!

2. Piggybacking: Is there an important delivery that needs to be made? Are the delivery guys in a hurry? Give them a helping hand! Next thing you know, you're passed the guards and inside the building!

3. Good ol' Trojan Horse: Kind of similar to piggybacking, except you get to be all lazy in your padded box while the delivery guys do all the heavy lifting.

4. Baiting: Who doesn't like a free drink? Have the bard invite the guards to the local tavern. Before they know it, a simple afternoon drink turns into a night of debauchery, leaving the mansion in a state of confusion as the more experienced guards start asking the important question, "Am I being paid enough overtime for this?"

5. Fraudulent Services: There be a wabbajack infestation! By the gods man, you don't know what wabbajacks can do?! Have you noticed little things going wrong lately? That could be their doing! Here, let my priest friend and I bless your home in the name of [insert respected local deity here] and we'll drive any wabbajacks out of your house! They especially like the cellar, so we may need your house keys.

I hope you all enjoyed that as much as I enjoyed writing it. :D
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
I'll note something here that is a big problem with a *lot* of systems, not just 5e.

Scenario: PCs are trying to sneak into suspicious mansion. 2 guards are awake and somewhat alert, if they raise the alarm the PCs are in big trouble.

The problem is that *every* PC has to make their stealth check! Odds are they aren't all stealthy, but even if they are, the odds of *every* one making their check is quite low... As a result, sneaking in attempts are best left to a single stealth specialist. It's frustrating because it means the stealth option is almost off the table...

Actually in 5e you can use a Group Check (PHB p.155) and then only half the party needs to succeed at the Dexterity (Stealth) check in order for the infiltration attempt to succeed.
 

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